Philosophical question

[ModelerXYZ]

After doing a very extensive refit of one of my locos, (New motor, wheels, coupling rods, and couplings) I come to the deep philosophical question of how much repairs can be done to a locomotive before it ceases to be the original locomotive? Is it like in the real world which seems to be that if it is the same frames, or in my case bodywork then all the parts can be refitted? Or do we draw the line elsewhere? What are your thoughts on this. Mine are that if the bodyshell is original then its still the same loco as it still has its identity. XYZ

[96RAF]

A locomotive is a true rotable, thus all parts can be replaced forever - aka Trigger's broom.

[sir john]

Take the flying scotsman for example it's been overhauled so many times I doubt there is much of the original left but it's still the flying scotsman 

[LTSR_NSE]

Imho as long as the parts are not replaced all together, but are replaced piecemeal as required, then even if every part is ultimately replaced, it is still the same loco (although it isn’t ‘as built’).

However if every part is replaced together (e.g. during a rebuild/upgrade) then imho it is a replica or a new loco which simply  carries an existing name.

[ellocoloco]

Got to ask @ModelerXYZ what caused the need to replace so much at the same time? Sounds like a gravitational runaway. 

I think I would have thanked it for all its hard work and given it a scenic roll on the scrap line.

[Rallymatt]

Having being involved in various restoration projects the answer is zero. Once you change one part it is no longer original but it is a working example. The reality is that no ‘original’ is actually original 

I would much rather have working example than a museum piece collecting dust, Flying Scotsman working is a National Icon, sadly Mallard condemned to motionless eternity is a National Disgrace (it’s probably less than 20% of what left Doncaster works already) In the same vein a working model to the same specification is restored with new parts but not original, but in my eyes preferable 😁

[atom3624]

That's one locomotive which surely had to be operational for next year's 200 celebrations - Mallard.

Such a shame.

Al.

[What About The Bee]

The 1927 winner of the Faster race was Tally Ho, a gaff schooner.   Keel first laid in 1910.

She passed through various hands until, within the past several years, she was sold to Leo, for the princely sum of 1 USD.  Why?  Tally Ho was a wreck. 

Leo completely restored this yacht, from the keel up. Samson Boat Company If the yacht had been normally maintained over the last one hundred years, then various wooden parts would have been replaced.  As each wooden part would have been gradually replaced, there would have been no question that the yacht was Tally Ho.  

So when Leo replaced many carvel planks, it was still Tally Ho, on a catch up maintenance plan.  And she remains thus.  That yacht is Tally Ho.  Ask any yachtie, and they will tell you the same.  I simply do not care how many pieces got replaced.   That's Tally Ho.

Now if Leo had built the exact same yacht, right next to Tally Ho, I would say replica.  But he did not.  He took parts off of Tally Ho and put them back on.

If the Flying Scotsman needs a new bearing for a coupling rod, does replacing that bearing make the locomotive not the Flying Scotsman.  No Sir.  That is the Flying Scotsman, and they are just keeping her in shape.

Bee

[What About The Bee]

*Fastnet Race.  My spell checker didn't understand.

Bee

[Deem]

In my opinion, what matter the most or value it most, it is you who can truly, put any true value to a loco or any item on your layout or in your storage. If you are happy after some part change or all part change then that is original for you. But if you aren't satisfied than either you put in storage or sell it, it has lost orthogonality. Ultimately it is the hobby you are enjoying, if after replacing (doesn't matter how many parts are changed) you feel satisfied with your effort and enjoying the hobby than it is original. We are, The Judge, the Jury and The executioner in our little world of Model Railway, what ever decision or repair we do, we have live with it.

[Paul-380474]

The current trend is to dig up crashed spitfires (and other classic planes), recover a few parts which are still serviceable (and have the serial number of the aircraft on them) and bolt/rivet/screw these to a completely new replica airframe. These planes are I believe then referred to as 'restorations'.

I have mixed feelings about this.

[ColinB]

In the classic bike world for some bikes it is matching engine and frame numbers, so you can change the rest but it is still original. In fact when you come to reregister a bike to prove it is original you get points for originality of parts. Surprisingly you only get one point for the engine, but 5 for the frame. As to locos, I run DCC so I modify them to make running them easier, so in the case of Hornby locos I move the decoder to the tender, removing that horrible fingered drawbar. I have several Wrenns which I draw the line at converting as it is more difficult and I prefer to keep them as they are. 

[Skelton Junction]

I’d offer the theory that if something occupies the same space and (from the viewer’s perspective) is what it is expected to be, then it  has not altered (despite having been altered) and is the same thing. 
 

[96RAF]

5 hours ago, Skelton Junction said:

I’d offer the theory that if something occupies the same space and (from the viewer’s perspective) is what it is expected to be, then it  has not altered (despite having been altered) and is the same thing. 
 

Exactly the same Fit, Form and Function are the requirements for interchangeability (ICY).

[Bulleidboy]

12 hours ago, Paul-380474 said:

The current trend is to dig up crashed spitfires (and other classic planes), recover a few parts which are still serviceable (and have the serial number of the aircraft on them) and bolt/rivet/screw these to a completely new replica airframe. These planes are I believe then referred to as 'restorations'.

I have mixed feelings about this.

I thought I had read awhile back that with a Spitfire, if you had the original build plate with serial number, the "new" rebuilt aircraft was classed as "original" - as you said - mixed feelings.

[Skelton Junction]

Agreed about the misgivings but if a rebuilt or new build Merlin were to roar over my head I’d not care if it were an original. 

[threelink]

Your railway, your rules 

Just enjoy it 

 

[LTSR_NSE]

@threelink naturally rule #1 is a great answer for real life modelling… not sure how it fits in a purely philosophical debate? (genuine question)

(My interpretation of philosophy is that the goal is for each person to provide their own individual perspective, so the whole group gains insight into the variety of opinions that exist within the collective.)

Edited Monday at 00:53 by LTSR_NSE

[threelink]

@LTSR. Point taken. I am not a philosopher. I did once put together a Lord of the  Isles from a pile of old Triang parts. It was the real Mcoy except that it was put together by me, not Triang. I sold it but felt obliged to describe it as what it was ie a fake. 

 

 

 

[96RAF]

6 hours ago, LTSR_NSE said:

@threelink naturally rule #1 is a great answer for real life modelling… not sure how it fits in a purely philosophical debate? (genuine question)

(My interpretation of philosophy is that the goal is for each person to provide their own individual perspective, so the whole group gains insight into the variety of opinions that exist within the collective.)

My interpretation is technicolour dreaming.

[LTSR_NSE]

8 hours ago, threelink said:

@LTSR. Point taken. I am not a philosopher. I did once put together a Lord of the  Isles from a pile of old Triang parts. It was the real Mcoy except that it was put together by me, not Triang. I sold it but felt obliged to describe it as what it was ie a fake.

Interesting… if you had rebuilt it using non-Triang random parts, I’d agree it was a fake.  But if it contained all genuine Triang parts (as shown on service sheet) I’d have thought of it as accurately repaired & therefore genuine itself.

All models are merely a Lord of the Isles, none are the Lord of the Isles!

Edited Monday at 12:30 by LTSR_NSE