White metal disease?

[Dazzler down under]

I recently had a loco in for repair, it turns out it has a thing called white metal disease, ive never herd of it, apparently its made the body removal tough and the chassis to become brittle? Anyone ever herd of it? Anyone know the cause of it?

 

the loco is pretty much junk now ill salvage what i can off it for spares for use at a later date but what a disapointment after having never run the loco.

[james_nelmes]

Dazzler

I had a triang 0-6-0 where the chassis just crumbled and so I salvaged the rest of it and like you used it as parts. This affects mainly the earlier Triang chassis as far as I am aware.

[Howbi]

It is a widespread problem with an alloy of aluminium/zinc and known as Mazak & Zamak which, due to humidity & temperature, eventually corrodes and becomes brittle..........widely used in die-cast toys........can't be repaired........HB

[Hairy]

Hi Dazzler, if you do a google search for "Mazak Rot", you will find many tales of woe about expanding chassis.

 

Mazak is a zinc based alloy developed in the 1930's, which if contaminated with lead during production causes it to swell and become brittle over time.

Regards

Chris

[Dazzler down under]

Thanks for the info guys.

So if its common among the older type locos due to the type of metal used why would i have it in an 09 model royal scot? obviously its still a problem today, and with no way to tell if a loco has it when brand new its pretty much like a lotto now when you buy a loco? is that the case?

[Fazy]

It's not just old model problem.  the all new singing and dancing class 31 was hit by this a few years ago.  just about the whole years worth of the original release was effected by it.  total nightmare.  

[81F]

 I may have had a problem with one of my Mainline 53XX when part of the chassis just dropped off. (near the motor mount) However I'm hoping that it was just a foulty casting rather than something that migh be more sinister.

Has anyone heard of similar reports with other makes?

[RDS]

... an 09 model royal scot? ...

 

Which Model Number is that one, as I have a Royal Scot, model R3085.

[Dazzler down under]

Its an old model RDS, R2629 "The Kings royal rifle corps" , i think it came out in the 09 catalogue, ive had it since brand new but never run it until 2 weeks ago when i went to fit a chip to it but couldnt get it to run on dc beforehand. I was looking at a model from the same year still stocked in my local model shop, another scot, but im gun shy now ill try to find the most current model of that class and steer clear of the 09 batch.

[The son of Triangman]

R.2629 is a relatively speaking a newer model, China made. Hornby super detail class 31's suffer from Mazak rot as well.  It seems to be a more common problem with today's locos.  Older models can of course suffer but it's rarer in older models as the purity of the metals tended to be better. For older models Tri-ang black painted syncrosmoke units suffer from it, the black paint reacts with the metal and causes cracking and degrading.  Lima locos particularly their steam locos suffered from mazak rot to the weights. Impurities in the metal caused swelling and cracking of the metal.

 

[Dazzler down under]

Ok, so I'm gathering  that this disease is impossible to detect in a new loco, and it must take years for the problem to slowly manifest before it destroys the metal inside the loco. Now my royal scot can't be the only one affected, there must be a whole batch out there I'm wondering if Hornby are aware of the problem. Even though this loco is 7-8 years old at the end of the day to me this is a manufactuter fault cause I sure as hell didn't cause it and I'm a little dirty about this whole saga so I've decided I'm gonna send Hornby an email and ask that they replace the loco cause as we have established this was caused by contaminated machinery or contamination at some stage while being built the way I see it I think I'm entitled to a replacment, so should any other folk who'd royal scot has been affected by this shoddy workmanship. dunno what my chances are but I'm gonna give it a go anyway, hopefully they do the right thing like they normally do. 

[Dazzler down under]

Let's just say for arguments sake the bloke at my local model shop still stocks the scot that came out the same year as R2629 now say if I go down there and get him to open the body and it too has this same disease he will send the loco back to his supplier and get a credit who in turn will seek out Hornby for the same thing. The way I see it I'm in the same boat as the shop owner the only difference is I got my loco home and his never left the shelf And as it's not under warranty and not the shops fault where I bought it I think hornby are the ones that are fault here

 

Am I being too hard?

ill let you all know h this is resolved. 

[Fishmanoz]

Dazzler, one of the problems you are going to have if you've emailed HCC is that their email turnaround time is typically weeks.  Far better to invest in a phone call during their office hours, and I suggest you ask for their manager Mark Lodge, if not there ask for him to call you back, he does.  Mark has only good reports about him on here and can probably give you a definitive answer too.

[Dazzler down under]

Ok thats sounds like the better option, i will touch base with Mark this week and see what can be done. Surley they have a policy regarding this type of thing.

[Fazy]

I sent a class 31 back to hornby last year.  After having it for years.  Long since lost prove of payment,  one of the frist green ones to be released. It could not be repaired due to lack of parts available.  so they sent me a £100 gift voucher.  and bought the 9f costie. With it. 

[WilliamDavid]

The tender of my Railroad Evening Star disintegrated after about 3 years.                                                 Hornby were of no help whatsoever.

[Dazzler down under]

Sorry to hear that William, it was due to This same white metal disease i assume?

.

ill still give hornby an opportunity to right things, they have been good to me in the past and have already replaced this loco due to a faulty valve gear when i first bought the original R2629 model, this is actually the replacement they gave me that now has this disease, by the time i got the replacement id moved house and didnt have room for a layout so the loco sat in a box for 6-7 years and was never run, until a week ago when i wanted to chip it but couldnt run it on dc first so  i knew there was a problem. 

.

i will be stunned if hornbys policy regarding this type of thing is to wipe their hands of the customer, i just cant believe thats what ill be told until they tell me but we shall find out in the next 48 hours.

[Wobblinwheel]

Man, this is CRAZY! Does this mean my four Hornby locos are gonna fall apart? Any other manufacturers afflicted with this "disease"? Where does this metal come from, UK or China?

[Dazzler down under]

Your locos should be ok but only time will tell, from the outside my loco looks good as new, you would never think there were anything wrong with it, and id assume this thing takes a few years to manifest so theres no way to tell if a brand new loco has it. So far its just the 1 hornby model effected from the 09 catelogue The rest of my models are ok.

[LCDR]

 Material deterioration has always been a problem for modellers and collectors.

 

Here are a few of the many manifestations -

 

Mazak disintegration - affects pre-War Hornby O gauge loco wheels, as well as chassis and weights of post War Tri-ang, Hornby, Farish and others.

 

Cellulose Acetate distortion - affects early Tri-ang and Farish, especially old Triang grey standard track and shortie coaches. Farish Pullmans were also particularly prone.

 

Polystyrene hardening - affects early Ian Kirk etc. wagon kits, also many things made from Plasticard. Items go brittle and crumble. This is particularly prevalent with items displayed in daylight. Some distortion over time is noticable too.

 

Add to this the corrosion of plated steel items like rails, fishplates, and valve gear. Corrosion of unpainted steel or iron, tinplate and similar materials. Storage in areas where repeated heating and cooling introduces condensation and moisture attacks.

 

Mould and fungal attacks on paper and card structures. Foxing in books.

 

Drying out of various adhesives. Sticky tape (Sellotape) goes brown and brittle and stains the paper or card in contact with it.

 

 

Packaging is also a risk area. Bubble wrap will affect any painted surfaces in contact with it. Expanded foam and foam rubber goes brittle and turns to dust sticking to the model and perculating the works.  Lubrication will dry out and turn into gum, sticking moving parts together. Staples in cardboard boxes rust, and spread into the surrounding material. This is a problem with old books and magazines too.

 

Enjoy you models while you can!!

[choralc]

And here I was thinking that it was only me deteriorating!

[Augustus Caesar]

Maybe we should open up an Old Trains Home where we can send our deteriorating and clapped out locos so they can eek out their final days with some fine lubricating and gentle body care.... exercise would be limited, of course, to say 10 seconds running time on a not so worn piece of nickel, turned rusty bronze, track. 😎

[LCDR]

 What do you mean 'maybe'? What do you think LC&DR's home is!? Only the oldest thing there is probably LC&DR himself!!

[The son of Triangman]

Sadly Mazak rot is here to stay and the problem has been with us since the early days of using this alloy.  Bad batches of metal do happen such as the super detail 31/brush type 2 problem where brand new Hornby superdetail 31's were breaking up within weeks of leaving the factory. New or old locos can be affected, it can depend on storage conditions, age, impurities in the metal etc.

Even locos going back to the 1930's aren't immune, the Hornby tinplate O gauge locos particularly the rare Princess Elizabeth loco suffers from mazak rot.  Lima Steam range locos suffer from it badly, the Lima King was dire for instance, the weights used to swell due to impurities and the loco plastic chassis would distort within weeks of leaving the factory, Mainline, Airfix/GMR, Bachmann, Graham Farish all suffer from Mazak rot.  Sometimes it's the odd model, othertimes a whole range in the case of the Lima steam locos.  Tri-ang is by no means immune either, chassis weights and the syncrosmoke smoke units that were painted black in the factory are prone to the rot as the metal reacts with the paint.

In most manufacturers defence I will say they do try to make sure the alloy used is of good quality and to standards laid down to meet ISO9001 and British Standards.

[96RAF]

A well known problem.

Anyone with experience of a 1950-60s car (Morris Minor, Vauxhall any, Ford Zephyr/Zodiac, etc) will be well aware of their chrome bits pimpling and corroding away in no time regardless of vigorous applications of chrome polish.

This link also talks to the root problem called zinc pest.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_pest

Interesting fettle quoted using vinegar...