Mazak rot?

[Passed Driver]

Dear Sir.    I don't know if this is a new topic ? But it is very worrying, after returning to the hobby after nearly fifty years doing other things, and reading on various forums about this subject. I have or had intended to have an MPD full of steam Locos ,  Would you please tell us all "What is the Solution "? All back to Margate? or what.

best wishes. Kevin

[walkingthedog]

Are you saying you have lots of locos that are breaking up or are you asking if new ones do it? 

 

Margate won't do you much good, Hornby aren't there any more. 

[LCDR]

 It seems that the problem has only affected a limited number of models, often in batches which suggests a bad lot of material used in certain production runs, and it may also be related to how the models have been stored. I have well over 500 model locomotives some of which I have had 40 years or more from new myself and a few that are between 40 and 90 years old, that someone else owned before I got them.

Only very very few have shown any severe signs of deterioration. (Including Mazak rot), Some early pre-War Hornby clockwork wheels have cracked and disintegrated, and a Kitmaster motor bogie has distorted and cracked. Damp has attacked one or two which may have been stored in less than ideal condition, some old Slater's wheels have gone rusty, but have responded well to cleaning.

Other similar problems include distortion of Cellulose Acetate plastic, and brittling of certain polystyrenes. Some things I made many years ago in plasticard have come to pieces as a result of plastic deterioration. Sunlight will cause some plastic to deteriorate quickly.

Nothing lasts for ever, but it isn't quite the disaster some may like to make it.

[Dazzler down under]

I've had one with mazak, in a model produced in 2007. Bad batch I suspect as I've inspected models of the same make from that year also with it.

[Fazy]

I have 60 locos all the newer type all fine but one. The Hornby class 31. However I sent it back to hornby and they gave me a £100 Voucher no Questions ask. Even after the model was close to ten years old.  Bought a Crosti 9f with it. 

[96RAF]

The problem is down to impurities in the mix of the base metal, then symptoms appear over time. Well doumented, but unless you can specifically check the mix of each and every batch of metal made in possibly some back street workshop that supports the main factory then you are fighting a losing battle and have to put up with the odd failure down the timeline.

 

The answer of course is to oversupply each and every Mazak product with sufficient spares to replace items that fail, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

I wish I had had 20/20 hindsight 60 years ago.

Rob

[Chrissaf]

I would settle for just having 20/20 vision today.

[Howbi]

I'm very fortunate as I have better than 20/20 vision with my Varifocals.......HB

[walkingthedog]

Ha ha, not so sure it counts wearing glasses HB.  😆

[Huwsie]

Hi Rob.

I am completely abashed to hear you, of all people say:

"but unless you can specifically check the mix of each and every batch of metal made in possibly some back street workshop that supports the main factory".....?

Coming from the industry that both you and I are / were in, I would have thought that even model train factories have supplier quality standards, and that each and every batch of everything would need to be in compliance with at least a minimum standard.

So my thoughts now are - was this a quality lapse that has since been addressed, or is it just 'pot-luck' wether you get a train with good, or bad metal? - I am rather hoping that the former is the case. These are after all, not low quality products. One would (reasonably??) expect the quality to extend from the user's rails, right back to the supply chain of all the materials used to produce it.

In the words of every EU debate recently: Please clarify your position on this?  😆

[Passed Driver]

Are you saying you have lots of locos that are breaking up or are you asking if new ones do it? 

 

Margate won't do you much good, Hornby aren't there any more. 

Hi Walkingthe dog.  No, what I said was "I was hoping to". Up to now I only have to new Locos , an M7 and a Terrier, the rest are from that famous online auction site.    Kevin

[96RAF]

@Huw

Given that China hopefully uses UK, European or even USA industry style quality standards there should be in place initial qualification and proving procedures for both the materials and the manufacturing process, with batch checks at proscribed intervals and also a repeat of these qualifications if a new element is introduced into the chain(factory move, material source or new sub-contractor, etc). I forget the exact terms we used for these stages as it is many years since I was involved with them at work, but we had to prove them for every job we did for a new customer to gain their qualifications.

 

My knowledge of the far east (my next door neighbour is Chinese and has a business over there) is that their trading standards may not be adhered to as strictly as we would like to imagine, including that there can be some lack of adherence to specified requirements and that not all of the order is for the original customer, i.e. ten for them and one for me to sell on to enhance the profit, often hived off from the rejects pile, so they do have quality checks in place..

 

Whether this happens in the model railway industry is moot but my neighbour seems fairly sure it is widespread. Not a wide poll of opinion I know but I believe everything anybody says these days.

 

So the answer to your question is there may be an element of 'pot' luck with a faulty batch slipping through or it may be as I suggested the sub-sub-sub-sub contractor providing the base metal mix is a back street lock-up - who knows.

Rob

[walkingthedog]

Are you saying you have lots of locos that are breaking up or are you asking if new ones do it? 

 

Margate won't do you much good, Hornby aren't there any more. 

Hi Walkingthe dog.  No, what I said was "I was hoping to". Up to now I only have to new Locos , an M7 and a Terrier, the rest are from that famous online auction site.    Kevin

I have only had one loco a Class 31 break due rot out of over 100 so I reckon you'll be OK. 

[Jeff Mennell]

WTD, is that 100 Class 31's?

[walkingthedog]

Of course. Must go got to iron my wierdo t-shirt.

[Jimbo1707820979]

@Huw

Given that China hopefully uses UK, European or even USA industry style quality standards there should be in place initial qualification and proving procedures for both the materials and the manufacturing process, with batch checks at proscribed intervals and also a repeat of these qualifications if a new element is introduced into the chain(factory move, material source or new sub-contractor, etc). I forget the exact terms we used for these stages as it is many years since I was involved with them at work, but we had to prove them for every job we did for a new customer to gain their qualifications.

 

My knowledge of the far east (my next door neighbour is Chinese and has a business over there) is that their trading standards may not be adhered to as strictly as we would like to imagine, including that there can be some lack of adherence to specified requirements and that not all of the order is for the original customer, i.e. ten for them and one for me to sell on to enhance the profit, often hived off from the rejects pile, so they do have quality checks in place..

 

Whether this happens in the model railway industry is moot but my neighbour seems fairly sure it is widespread. Not a wide poll of opinion I know but I believe everything anybody says these days.

 

So the answer to your question is there may be an element of 'pot' luck with a faulty batch slipping through or it may be as I suggested the sub-sub-sub-sub contractor providing the base metal mix is a back street lock-up - who knows.

Rob

Hi Rob. In your last paragraph you mention 'pot' luck. Wasn't Mazak also known as 'pot metal' ? 😀 I have the impression that Mazak is inherently unstable, as exemplified in the British car industry a few decades ago. As an instance, even fairly up-market cars like the XK Jaguars and the MG TF suffered from bad pitting of their rear-light plinths. To such an extent that several small firms offered replacements made of gunmetal or brass. chromable or ready-chromed. So 'pot luck' is very apt.

[96RAF]

you mention 'pot' luck.

 

The phrase was tongue in cheek due to the common name.

 

Most cars of a certain age suffered the dreaded chrome pitting often withni a few years of new. First pitting then bubbling up as corrosion burst forth. With Vauxhalls in the 50s-60s it was a race twixt shiny metal bits and body panels as to which would drop off first due to corrosion. Rootes Group - Hillmans, Singer, Sunbeam seemed to last longer. I fitted new back lights to my Morry Minor ex-VW Beetle as they much better quality.

Rob 

[SRmike]

I have only experienced the problem with Scot and Patriot purchased at about the same time. It was solved by replacing the drivers and axles/gears. So far so good

[Peter in Oz]

Interesting..I contacted Hornby a couple of years ago when the metal ?cover that held down the motor and screw drive on a Royal Scot broke into little pieces.Each time I tried to put the pieces together they broke further; emailed Hornby, sent photos as asked and..nothing.  No replacement part, no further correspondence, and no functioning loco.  At least I know what to call it.

[Dazzler down under]

Peter, was that an R2628 black watch or an R2629 kings royal rifle corps Scot loco? I had the R2629 that had the same problem, the whole batch was obviously contaminated because I've inspected several over the last year or 2 all with the same issue.

[Peter in Oz]

Peter, was that an R2628 black watch or an R2629 kings royal rifle corps Scot loco? I had the R2629 that had the same problem, the whole batch was obviously contaminated because I've inspected several over the last year or 2 all with the same issue.

I think it was the rifle corps, had to buy a whole new notorised chassis as I couldn't track down a replacement, and got no assistance from the manufacturer.

[WilliamDavid]

Interesting..I contacted Hornby a couple of years ago when the metal ?cover that held down the motor and screw drive on a Royal Scot broke into little pieces.Each time I tried to put the pieces together they broke further; emailed Hornby, sent photos as asked and..nothing.  No replacement part, no further correspondence, and no functioning loco.  At least I know what to call it.

I suppose this is the same part on the 2007 Patriots. A 'new' loco off ebay is now jut scrap.

[Mark Damien]

Due to person issues my locos have been packed away. Times have changed and I recently started getting my much loved model trains out again. I have eight Hornby T9's; two of which are special editions. So far SIX of EIGHT T9's are non runners due to this metal disintegration problem. Since these locos were only ever test run before being stored, I am a little upset about the lack of replacement Chassis & Motor housings.

Bachmann had the same problem with one particular run of their N-Class. They did a run of replacement parts; painted & numbered, and provided them free to whoever asked for one.

Is Hornby going to do the same? 

[walkingthedog]

Have you asked them?

[new lad on block]

Hi Mark Damien, welcome to the forum.

Could I ask you to list the 'R' numbers of the problem T9s. I have several of these locos so could check mine.

I would also like to hear from other members if they have experienced this problem,and which model. I know the class 31 is well documented.

Somewhere I recall, I saw a list of, the most affected Hornby locos, as well as other makes which suffer from this problem.Perhaps other members may know where it is, and post a link.