Loco Detection - Hornby, please tell us what is happening

[RDS]

once again no announcement in 2020 release about this subject from hornby.

have contacted hornby customer service and their technical department.

basic question asked - is loco detection going to happen for railmaster? 

currently we do not need an all singing and dancing system, just a system that detects the trains and comunicates with railmaster and a location varification option for programming ie train a has reached position b etc

this simple train detection requirement can be seen on other systems, not only for trains but for moving vehicles.

I cannot understand why we do not have this system when on this forum people have constantly asked  for it , and it is recognised as a vital part for automated control.

if hornby are not going to develop this idea, why not allow railmaster to comunicate with existing equipment currently available.

[Bexhill Donkey]

There is a technical impasse. There are two kinds of RFID tags - there is the kind that is used for point of sale systems where you tap your bank card on the reader in the shop and the till takes your money and there is the kind that is used for pets and library books. In the case of a bank card, you don't want to have the money taken by a device which is some distance away! So, the bank card has to be designed only to make a payment when it is placed directly on the reader. In the case of cats and library books, you want the RFID tag to be read some distance away from the device. For example, as your cat approaches the electronic cat flap, you want the RFID tag in the cat to be detected and the device to open the catflap before the cat tries to enter the house.

An electronic catflap works in quite a simple way. There is a coil through which current from a battery is passed.  As the cat approaches, a complementary current is induced in the RFID tag which causes the tag to transmit a signal to the catflap telling it to open.

This will work for model trains, but the technical impasse is that distances on model railways are extremely short, and the loco would be detected everywhere it was on a small layout. So this brings us to the question of whether point-of-sale type RFID tags can be used. As with a bank card, the tag must be directly above the detector, and the loco must be stationary - if the loco is moving, it won't be detected. 

Many ideas have been tried - hall effect transistors and magnets, Infra-red detectors and so on. The problem with all of these ideas is that loco detection is a real-time application and Railmaster is not a real-time application, being compiled code and not machine code. If a loco is approaching the detector from, let's say 3 feet away, then Railmaster has not got enough time to react.

If you want loco detection on your layout, you are at liberty to invent it and sell your product to Hornby. Obtaining the RFID tags and reader is not the most difficult thing. You will need to get a Raspberry Pi or Arduino and write the program in machine code.

My thinking on this subject is that you would need several detectors - a distance detector, to tell the software what loco was on the track, and a series of short range detectors places along the track to tell the software if the train was moving and where it was. Not easy.  

If you have got any ideas as to how loco detection could be implemented, I am sure Hornby will be all ears!

[walkingthedog]

Do you think Hornby haven't got a clue what to do, or is it  not possible they are way ahead of anything that has been discussed on here? 

[96RAF]

All very educational BxD, but lets think about LD based on what we actually know about the system...

It uses IR sensors - we have pictures of them located between the sleepers. There was a method of calibrating locos shown in a previous RM manual using these sensors.

A train with a simple reflective tag passes over a sensor and the collector box to which the banks of sensors are connected reacts and sends a signal to RM - e.g. sensor 123 triggered.

RM already knows from a program where the locos started from and what their direction and speed is so when a sensor chirps up RM kind of knows which loco has just passed over it. As RM will only be using sensors within a program then it will action the next programmed event, e.g. stop the train, switch a point, make an announcment or whatever - hence it will all be sequential as listed in a timed program.

I doubt there will be any clever loco (barclaycard or cat) ID goings on, just dumb passing events triggering further dumb events.

 

I just wish they would get on with it.

[walkingthedog]

 Could the reason for the delay be because the system that will eventually  arrive will be nothing like you are expecting?

[peter_brown]

I recently requested an update from Hornby and got a "Not in 2020" reply.

[Souty Train Guy]

For me Loco Detection would be reasonably simple to setup, ie.

Sensor A ---2cm Track --- Sensor B

Depending on which one is activated first, depends on the direction.

Each block end and set of points would have something like this.

Link up to a reasonably cheap computer with some code.

Connect signals to relays...

That's my solution (when I come to install it!)

[Chris Surrey]

IMHO detection using hardware and sticking "things" on the bottom of locos, has long been superceded by feedback systems such as that used by Digikeijs. If Hornby are working on something (which I doubt) it really should be along those lines. But this would presumably involve a major rewrite of the core Railmaster software which may explain, for technical reasons (let alone commercial ones), why as well as not doing this themselves, allowing Railmaster to talk to other offerings has not been considered.  

[96RAF]

STG - The missing link in your plan is ‘...link to a PC...’. You need hardware to do that. You cannot just connect a load of sensors direct to a PC, no matter what code it is running as no doubt you well know.

That hardware and more importantly its capability is the problem it seems.

One of our forum members has designed and proved that it works, a collector module that collates output from many IR sensors and passes that data through an interface device to a PC, Arduino or Ras-Pi so an LD system is viable. Whether he opts to publish details of that system on the forum is down to him.

Other model railway software packages such as Rocrail, JMRI, iTrain, TrainControl.er, etc support use of commercial LD packages so the simple way ahead for Hornby is to do is as suggested earlier - provide support in RM for these available systems and dump their still born in-house system.

[Souty Train Guy]

STG - The missing link in your plan is ‘...link to a PC...’. You need hardware to do that.

 

Sorry I forgot to mention it would work on GPIO pins of a Raspberry Pi, all the software / code is basic and simple to code in python. It is not necessary to link with DCC but linking to JMRI could be an option

[Bexhill Donkey]

RAF96 - According to information released in 2014 it was to be RFID and not infra-red like 'IR dot'. If it is just a reflective metal strip attached to the underside of the loco, then that would not identify the specific loco and a magnet would do just as well. R8309 LD Tag strip is a bit pricey at £9.99 if it is just a piece of baco foil!

R8306 Pack contains: LD Module, 1Pk LD Tag Strips, 4 x LD Track sensors. £79.99R8307 LD Module £69.99R8308 LD Track Sensor £ 7.50R8309 LD Tag Strip £ 9.99R**** LD Track Sensor Transformer £ 9.99

The proposed hardware is based on Vellman8055 or Elexol2410.

According to Hornby magazine May 2014 DCC Handbook - page 5, Hornby loco detection system is made up of 3 components - a loco detection module, track sensors and locomotive detection tags. Each LDM is designed to plug into a USB port on a PC and can read up to 48 track sensors. Additional LDM's can be connected to read more sensors. The track sensors require a 1mm hole to be drilled through a sleeper for installation. The detector tags are be fitted to the underside of locomotives, and the system will work with up to 106 encoded tags at any one time. As a tag passes a sensor it sends data to RM identifying the loco. If you have more than 106 locos you can duplicate the detection tags on other models not in use at that time. Loco detection is expected to be available sometime never (as of this writing in February 2020).

 

 

[walkingthedog]

The thing is. at about the time you are referring to with LD being imminent, Hornby had a eureka moment, not my words Simon Kholers I believe,  and decided to rethink the whole thing, so what is in the 2014 handbook could well be a thing of the past.

[Fishmanoz]

Rob, there are a couple of errors in your post on page 1.

 

For a start, BD has it correct with his detail from the 2014 magazine about the hardware and its basics. Next, we know that the detectors were said to be able to allow RM to determine loco ID, direction and speed. 

The next thing you need to realise is that in general, RM has no idea where anything is on the layout, where it came from or where it is going to.  The only exception is under LD where, when anything is detected, it knows that thing is at the detector, and it's direction and speed.  But again be clear, RM does not know where that detector is. Only you do.

 

The next thing we know is what you can do when a detection is made.  Take a look at the top of this forum at the sticky thread on LD commands.  You'll see it is quite a long list and able to do quite a lot.  One of the things you can do is run a program, so overall quite powerful.  You can certainly set up if-then-else logic.

 

Finally, you can do some actual playing around with this.  One of the track plan items is a detector.  So mount one on your layout, right click on it and you can see how and where you can put those LD commands.  You can't actually make them work as there is no hardware to make and communicate a detection but all of the software is already in RM.

 

I am making an assumption here - HRMS has left all of this capability in RM.  It's more than 2 years since this was first included in RM and I'm just assuming it is still there, haven't checked lately.

 

Finally, try LD and Loco Detection searches in the forum.  All of this was discussed at length over 2 years ago following the appearance of the LD commands in two stages and the detector icon.

[TrainMan29]

Some of the big Hornby adverts in the model magazines over the winter mentioned the forthcoming loco detection feature. This suggests they haven't dropped it but are still planning to release LD.

 

The Hornby 2020 range is clearly a look to the past as they celebrate their anniversary.

 

I think the 2021 range will be a look to the future with LD amongst other announcements bringing the brand up to date.

[Yelrow]

TrainMan, nowt wrong with wishful thinking, but i am afraid so long has elapsed, and so many other systems now in play, that this boat, may have sailed. When it was talked about, demand / interest was very high, although it was reasonably priced..  By next year, prices will have soared, and market share, considerably reduced. Whatever, is released, assuming, something is, i dont think it will bear any resemblance to trhe original plan, as that has long since become outdated. .

[zeroOneman]

any form of detection would be better than we have now - just a simple input to be able to trigger a signal to turn to danger (or back again) within the software, in conjunction with ABC braking would be awesome. It is possible to automate signals currently - but that doesn't feed back to RM.

[BigNoj]

I know this is not Hornby but it appears neither is their Loco Detection now. So has anyone seen this  proposed system on Railmagic.com. 

[Chrissaf]

Yes.....vapourware at present......one man band.....looking for financial backers.....very little information available on the supposed detection technology.......it appears to be some form of DCC signal reflection technology.....as an analogy think of radar and/or sonar.....but this is just a guess, based upon the product description inference that there are no physical track detectors placed around the layout in the 'Railmagic' solution.

[96RAF]

I think the clue is in the word ‘Magic’. No such thing, only sleight of hand and distraction. So far only smoke and mirrors.

[RB51]

The sparse information to hand suggests that the detection will only slow and halt a train at a signal. No suggestion at present that any other action is possible. R-

[St1ngr4y]

Careful guys. I just tried to reach www.railmagic.com and my Norton 360 blocked it as a "Dangerous Web Page".

 

Ray

[Michael_A]

Whatever they do I hope it will not involve changing decoders! I have over a hundred locos, and I aint paying 2k or more to change them!

 

To me the obvious solution is a bar code, as all this needs is a sticker and an IR sensor (apart from the obvious electronics and USB interface, but surely this can be based on Rasperry pi or Arduino)

[zeroOneman]

I'd be happy with reed switches ANYTHING to give some feedback, and playing with the loco detection bits and bobs in RM, this seems to be one of the options, so why not release a 'lite' version now ?

[Yelrow]

You wont get any feedback on here, as Hornby dont monitor the forum. There are still many features within Railmaster,  awaitng fixes, , some go back a long time, and daily , it seems there is a new guy, having probs with connections, which leads one to belive , a major overhaul/ update, is long overdue.  The keen guys, wanting all singing and dancing, have long since moved on to  different systems.  Dont hold your breath.