Point motor switches (Hornby ) problem when more than one.

[Richards Grandad]

I am putting a layout together for my grandson and am having a problem with operating the points.

I have bought new Hornby switches as l suspected the problem l was having was due to faulty second hand items.

With one switch it will work ok , once l load another switch ,nothing works ?

I am using an external CDU as l was thinking that the internal on on my Vortex Zero Five controller was faulty, all points on board work individually ok as long as only one switch is wired on it's own .

I now see after searching that Hornby switches are prone to playing up when CDUs are used , anyone have any suggestions , feeling a bit brassed off now having spent all that money on new switches which don't appear to work as a bank?

Any suggestions gratefully received

GJ Bob

[P-Henny]

Sounds to me like a basic wiring error (probably with the common return). Post some pictures showing how its all connected together as text descriptions rarely give appropriate detail. Posted pictures will be held back for approval and will not appear in forum straight away.

[ModelerXYZ]

Basically the controller output isn't man enough for the job. Common supply after the CDU should connect to the bottom of the switches. Red&Green wires to the holes. The common returns all connect together to the -output of the CDU and happy days.

There is a diagram attached.

XYZ

[Gordonvale]

What are the characteristics of the power supply to the CDU?

[P-Henny]

Grandads Vortex is a Morely branded controller so unlikely to be a power supply issue unless faulty. He says that one Hornby switch wired on its own works OK, again this suggests the power supply is OK. It is only connecting multiple Hornby switches in a bank that stops ALL switches from working. This really does suggest IMO that it is a wiring issue as I previously posted.

For example, the common return point motor wires have to be connected together before connecting to the CDU return. I question Grandad how he is making this connection. Trying to terminate multiple wires onto a CDU terminal designed for a single wire may be the source of the problem.

As I'm sure all experienced modellers will know. If there is a permanent continuity circuit across the output of a CDU, this prevents the CDU from being charged and ALL point motors will cease working. I am of the opinion as an alternative theory that Grandad might have mis-wired the multiple switches such that a permanent circuit has been created across the CDU output. Hence my Q3 below in addition to the common return connection question posed in my previous paragraph.

Note to Grandad.

1. How many point motors are you trying to switch - i.e how many Hornby switches in the bank?
2. What brand & model are the point motors?
3. Are you mixing both Hornby & Peco brand point motors on the same layout - as the wire colours for these point motor brand return paths are different and can't be wired the same?

[96RAF]

Have a look at this page - scroll down a ways until you see ‘Point motor wiring’ a lot of text and some diagrams.

https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical-Page-2.html#pointmotorwiring

[Richards Grandad]

Ok Been working on it today , still no joy .

I have linked two points to the one switch , no problem , both points on that circuit would need to be switched at same time anyway so that one train can be stationary at station wile other progresses until it gets to station on other track then change .

on the black wires from points l have linked them all together on a bolt and then put lead from the bolt to external CDU. Could this be the problem)

Like l have already stated add another switch and nothing works , if l take that switch away and put power supply to it , it works fine .

Wiring is as diagram above

All parts are new Hornby apart from new gaugemaster point wiring

At the moment l want to get two pairs of points working as l have five tracks on one side coming down to three tracks on the other, the central track which at the moment l am not concentrating on will have three individual points ,again all Hornby.

Looking at buying Peco switching if l can't get these to work (more expense!)

I was intending having a bank of 8 switch but l can't even use 2.

Its almost like adding second switch it shorts out , but it's not that.

Still needs more time spent on it.

GJ Bob

[P-Henny]

You probably haven't got one but if you have, this really needs a Multimeter to diagnose your issue.

When wired correctly. If you take the two wires that connect to the CDU off the CDU terminals and put those two wires across the Multimeter switched to the Ohms Resistance range, then in a correctly wired solution you should measure a completely 'open circuit' i.e no resistance. If you get any resistance reading at all then you have either wired it incorrectly or have something in circuit that is faulty and needs deeper investigation. In a correctly wired solution the Multimeter should only display a brief low resistance as you operate the Hornby switch in each direction. You can get a 'sweet spot' by holding the Hornby switch near the end of its travel in each direction where a constant low resistance reading can be measured ..... typically about 4 to 8 Ohms.

These solenoid operating circuits are really simple and are easy to diagnose with the use of a Multimeter.

If you haven't got one, they are really cheap for basic measurements in ebay and via Screwfix etc.

Are you definitely using the Hornby R044 point switch (BLACK COLOUR) and not any other colour such as green or yellow. If you have non black (non R044) switches in the switch bank then that is your issue.

Yellow R046 Hornby switches must not be used for operating points.

You really will be doing yourself a favour if you posted the photos I asked for in my first reply. It might be something really obvious that will show up in a photo.

[Richards Grandad]

Just had quick look at latest reply ,so Yellow switches are a NO NO then? that might be it then as i was colour coding so thought yellow then black etc was the way to go ,will check that tomorrow and read rest of your reply , have multi meter so can do what you suggest.

THANKS

GJ Bob

[Richards Grandad]

PH

Looks like that was problem , just tried and used two black switches and they seem to work when joined , thought all the coloured switches were the same .

Write again after further work tomorrow.

BIG THANKS

GJ Bob

[P-Henny]

The yellow switch is a locking change-over switch. So if that is connected to the CDU it is putting a permanent electrical circuit across the output of the CDU (or the low resistance coil of a point motor if the Yellow switch is wired to a point motor). This will not damage the CDU, but it will prevent the CDU from operating any other points, even if they are wired to black switches. If the CDU had not been present, then using the Yellow switch will cause any solenoid point motor connected to it to burn out.

The black R044 switches ...... although 'change-over' are 'passing contact' switches and only give a brief metallic connection when being thrown, whereas the Yellow switch is a permanent metallic connection.

When using a CDU (this includes the internal CDU in the Vortex controller) you must not mix black switches with green or yellow switches in the same switch bank.

A photo (as I requested) would have instantly shown up this error. But at least you now have a solution to your issue.

For information.

The R044 BLACK switches are 'passing contact' change-over for solenoid point operation where only a brief pulse of power is needed.

The R046 YELLOW switches are normal SPDT change-over switches to provide permanent power to operate accessories such as dual aspect signals (i.e. Hornby R406). Note that you cannot use the output of your CDU for ANY accessory that needs a permanent power supply. External add-on CDUs are designed specifically for solenoid point motors and nothing else.

The R047 GREEN switches are basic SPST 'on-off' switches for general accessory use i.e turning on and off station platform or street or internal building lighting. They are also used with Hornby R618 isolating tracks.

[gilbo2]

I am putting a layout together for my grandson and am having a problem with operating the points.....

 

 

I'm glad to see you are all sorted now. Colour coding reminds me of what my Dad used to do. He used small coloured dots on each point and respective switches, simple, but it made control straight forward.

 

 

[P-Henny]

I now see after searching that Hornby switches are prone to playing up when CDUs are used......

 

 

Just to add to my previous reply. The issue you have read about with regard using Hornby R044 BLACK switches with a CDU can be alleviated by throwing the switch sedately with a very slight pause when the lever is in the middle of travel. The issue is technically explained in the link posted by 96RAF in his earlier reply on the previous page.

[Brew Man]

Or if you want to alleviate the problem altogether, go for Peco PL-26 passing contact switches.

[Richards Grandad]

Ok THANKS

Now sorted , obviously l was using the yellow switches thinking they were same as the other coloured not realising that they all had different operating methods .

Got all four points working on four black switches , one of the points has packed up working one way ,it is one of the surface mounted versions (are they prone to being problematic) only a few weeks old , motor pulses when powered but refuses to activate lever ,just the one way , opened it up and all connections are still intact . coil problem? so renew point motor?

Change leads over on switch just in case that showed it did work wired other way but still no joy .

THANKS for sorting other problem for me.

GJ Bob

[Richards Grandad]

Ok THANKS

Now sorted , obviously l was using the yellow switches thinking they were same as the other coloured not realising that they all had different operating methods .

Got all four points working on four black switches , one of the points has packed up working one way ,it is one of the surface mounted versions (are they prone to being problematic) only a few weeks old , motor pulses when powered but refuses to activate lever ,just the one way , opened it up and all connections are still intact . coil problem? so renew point motor?

Change leads over on switch just in case that showed it did work wired other way but still no joy .

THANKS for sorting other problem for me.

GJ Bob

[Brew Man]

With Surface mount point motors you have to make sure they are aligned dead square on the point. They are very pernickety. You can test if it's working by disconnecting it from the point's tie bar, (the bar it connects to to operate the point) and seeing if it works both ways like that. I've not heard of many if any failing, it's usually an alignment issue, or a wire come adrift.

[Richards Grandad]

Unmounted motor from base and motor still only works the one way like the actuating rod isn't being pulled into the coil at that end or pushed from other , whichever it is.

GJ Bob

[Rog RJ]

This is where a multimeter would be useful to see if both coils are ok. One may have been burnt out while you had the wrong switches in circuit.

Can you detect any burnt smell from the motor?

[P-Henny]

The most common reason for a solenoid point motor only working in one direction. Is when the common return wire is crossed with one of the coil operating wires.

This is a very commonly reported issue when solenoid motors from both Hornby and Peco are mixed on the same layout. Hornby use black as the common return whereas Peco use the green wire as the common return. So if a Hornby motor is wired to the Peco colour spec or a Peco motor wired to the Hornby colour spec, then the motor will only operate in one direction.

Assuming that this is not your issue and ALL your point motors are Hornby and ALL your common returns are black wires, then another common issue with the Hornby R8243 surface mounted point motor is that their cases are not very rigid.

This allows the point motor case to flex, particularly if not screwed to a perfectly flat surface. The flexing causes the soft iron solenoid slug inside the motor to stick.

When mounting R8243 surface mounted point motors, it is best if the fixing screws are only tightened enough to hold the motor in place. Ideally, you need to be able to feel slight movement with your fingers when manipulating the motor with finger tips. This slackness should ensure that the case is in a fully relaxed state.

Alignment with any point motor, is critical to also ensure robust operation in both directions.

If still only operating in one direction whilst not mounted on the baseboard, then either a crossed wire as above or a damaged coil. Was this particular motor previously wired to a yellow switch.

[Richards Grandad]

Yes Would have been wired to a yellow switch , but has been working ok since replacing with correct switch .

No signs of burnt out coil , smell or visual .

Get back to checking soon.

Motor is off baseboard and will only operate pulling lever in to motor .

GJ Bob

[P-Henny]

Assuming a Hornby R8243 point motor. Use the Multimeter you previously said you had access to and check both motor coil resistance i.e resistance between black wire and red wire and compare that reading to reading between black wire and green wire. Both readings should be virtually the same at about 4 to 8 ohms. If significantly different, replace motor with a new one.

If readings the same, then (if you can) open the motor to visually inspect the two coils. Look for any signs of swelling or scorching on one of the coils compared to the other, if any differences are noticed then replace motor with a new one.

[Richards Grandad]

Solved , green lead had come out of connector under table .

Bit like not checking to see if fuse has blown really .

Sorry for wasting your time AGAIN!

thanks GJ Bob

[P-Henny]

No question is a waste of time......if solved.

Best way to learn is to solve problems. Nothing is learnt if it goes right first time every time without issue.