Preorder

[Alan-362839]

Why is it that every thing you want or need is on preorder??.

Its time that the organisation keeps stock of the products that it advertises.

[LTSR_NSE]

The time of model ‘manufacturers’ storing almost infinite stock (& simply running off more when stock gets low) is long in the past.

Now the reality is that model companies are merely commissioners, all fighting over finite production slots with the actual manufacturers.

Embrace pre-ordering or risk missing out, but wishing for the past is futile unfortunately.

[Simmo009]

You must be quite new to this. As an example, Hornby announced a new tooling BR Standard 2MT in January 2020, with an expected date of Winter 2020. Note that this was before anyone had even heard of Covid. These are currently on a ship from China to the UK, and should be in our grubby expectant hands sometime in September. Nearly 4 years from announcement to delivery. This is quite typical across all manufacturers, sometimes shorter, sometimes longer. Just pre-order and wait. I would not put too much faith in any unsubstantiated delivery dates unless they say it is actually in manufacture or in transit. The 2MT has had 7 or 8 different expected dates, all of which I have taken with a humungous pinch of sodium chloride.

[What About The Bee]

Hi Alan

As this is your first post, may I extend a warm Welcome Aboard!

I'd like to answer your question in various ways, so please do bear with me.

There are currently 240 locomotives listed in the Hornby catalog. Of those, 130 are pre-order and 110 are available to order from stock. You can apply filters to your browsing experience to select for this. Perhaps you may be enticed by a locomotive currently in stock.  

That doesn't address the root of your statement. If I read it properly, your statement asks Hornby to not have pre-orders, but to make items available as they are announced.

Suppose for a minute Hornby names you as Marketing Director. I do understand the role is currently available. Your job, as Marketing Director, is to select what models will be offered and in what quantities. Now I am an ERA 1, Liverpool and Manchester Railway enthusiast, so I put forward that you should select the Twin Sisters maintenance of way locomotive. Twin Sisters was used also in the construction of the LMR. Is this a wise choice? If you select this model, how many units will you prepare? 500, 5000 or 500,000? You must choose wisely, but how?  Remember lad, your choice can bankrupt the company! How many will you put in stock before the announcement?

At Hornby Range Launch, some announcements are simply trial ballons. Will the enthusiasts order? Will the major retailers order? With the initial pre-orders in hand, Hornby can make an informed assessment. Some never get built, based on the pre-order interest.

To achieve your wish, Hornby could model every single blessed UK outline locomotive, every piece of rolling stock no matter how obscure, in every livery, for every era. Stock all of this in a gigantic warehouse, making everything available, all the time. No one goes wanting. The carrying costs of all that kit sitting there will swallow any company.

May I suggest what others have. Place your pre-orders, informing Hornby of your interest. Wildly popular items will get made and Hornby knows this from pre-orders.

Bee

[ColinB]

To me it seems a dumb idea, unique it seems to model railway. People on this site seem to justify it until the cows come home, so far none of their arguments really stack up. Working out how many items to make is generally part of the marketing function so trying to do by preorders is a bit of a cheat. I know in the car world my company lost very many orders to customers because many of our competitors could provide a model immediately rather than wait 6 months for it to be made. It has to be special for people to wait a long time. Currently they get away with it but who knows what the future holds.

[96RAF]

To gain a better understanding of Hornby operations and justification for stock holdings, pre-order policy, etc you all may like to have a trudge through this, although it is heavy going in places.

https://wp-hornby-2020.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/media/2023/07/42393-HORNBY-%E2%80%93-AR23_Web.pdf

[AndyMac1707817969]

I don't see what is dumb about advertising items you intend to produce to potential customers. The comparison to the car industry is just not realistic. Not waiting 6 months for a particular car because you need one now and any number of other models will do the same job so you buy one instead. You think it’s better that not knowing Hornby is say producing a specific model so you go and buy one from another manufacture only to hear weeks or months later Hornby now produce one. Is this preferable to being told what is on its way and you could have made and informed choice to wait or not. Makes no sense, I also did not know marketing had rules to cheat from. Never been on any marketing course where 'secrecy' was promoted as a good option.

Hornby not including pre-orders on their stock is exactly the same as you choosing the ‘Show only items in stock;’ option. Same results so why don’t you just use that option. You will therefore not know what is on its way exactly the same as if Hornby did not tell you in the first place. Would this not make you happy and the rest of us can be left looking forward to, planning ahead and budgeting for what we want.

Comparing the above to Bachmann / EFE Rail who now just tell you what is about to arrive in the shops. Of course that policy goes straight out the window in cases such as the Newton Chambers Car Transporters recently released by Heljan in a bid to stop anyone who wanted them from buying from the competition.

 

[Moccasin]

I'm not sure the comparison with the car industry stacks up or, if it does, then a pre-order for Hornby (and others in model railways) is more akin to a car manufacturer launching a new car model 6 months before it reaches the showrooms. Car magazines are full of launches of cars with details of powertrain options etc with a common last line being along the lines of "available later this year". This is similar to @AndyMac's point - if a customer don't know what's coming, they might order a car from a competitor because the current competing model of the soon-to-be-superseded car is based on a 3-year old platform that is outdated.

With production slots in Chinese factories really limited, it helps Hornby and their competitors to know what demand there is and increase their orders accordingly. A case in point are the TT120 train sets, which have run out twice since release. If Hornby had been able to gauge demand beforehand, they could have avoided the 6 months or so that they've been without stock.

[ColinB]

Actually your argument about cars to me doesn't make that much sense generally most of the public just want a car. As the 3 year old platform anyone that has worked in the car industry will tell you that you don't touch a new model for at least 6 months. If you guys are happy with the preordering system then who am I to complain, it appears though from a lot of posts I read not everyone is. I preorder my locos because that is the only way to guarantee the price, the danger of not getting one seems to have passed.

[RB51]

Let’s keep it calm and model railway related please chaps. It’s not too far out of hand at the moment. You know the rules re chat. R-

[ColinB]

There is another point of view, by announcing the model and taking orders before you have started taking making the thing, you fix the price too early. Hornby's current strategy is to honour the pre order price, so if it takes 4 years to produce the model the pricing is all wrong. How can you predict the price when you don't know what your manufacturing costs will be at the time you make it? You can have a rough guess but when you are talking intervals of 4 years it gets incredibly difficult especially when it is not your "in house" manufacturing.

[96RAF]

There was a suggestion on another forum that Hornby made the running gear and Airfix produced the bodywork. Needless to say it was received like a wet weekend in July by HH at the time.

[ColinB]

Sorry 96RAF what is your post about? Are we talking about a previous model? Interestingly I got a mail from Hornby today to say my Lord President had arrived, I think that order was about 4 years ago but at least I got about £50 off the current price. There again I wouldn't pay the current price for that model but perhaps there lies Hornby's problem.

[What About The Bee]

People on this site seem to justify it until the cows come home, so far none of their arguments really stack up.

 

 

I prefer to understand what the current state of affairs at Hornby are. Call it empathy, trying to see it through the eyes of the organization. Call it curiosity, trying to understand what they are doing. It is interesting to me. Call it self interest, because if I understand what Hornby are doing, I may adjust my actions to better my results. Knowing the current situation

In simple point of fact, automotive manufacturers have a marketing department as well. I am not discussing sales, but rather deciding on what models of cars to produce, and in what quantities. I will not address UK manufacturers, out of respect for the UK, but will certainly point out that production lines of certain automobiles in the US are shut down when the sales market is flooded with cars people don't want. Employees are furloughed, purchased supply chain goes idle and sunk costs are swallowed. All because that twit in marketing chose poorly.

In simple point of fact, it isn't justification, but rather analysis of the way things are.

Bee

BTW Colin, I seem to recall you discussing Hornby over the HM7000 / Android App kerfuffle. I did understand your point at the time, but surely you have downloaded the Hornby app and had a go. Would you care to describe your experiences, likes and dislikes?

[LTSR_NSE]

@Colin - what is the relevance of comparing the current model railway industry with your experiences of the car industry in the past?

The market sizes, quantities of competitors, and economic environments bear no similarities & aside from purely personal interest to yourself, such comparison doesn’t appear to really explain, critique or inform this (or other) discussion(s)?

I in no way wish to offend, and certainly your contributions about model railways are both interesting & informative - however your comparisons (with personal experience) are confusing & whilst appearing to suggest how Hornby should operate, are obviously only relevant to a different/previous world. Like the OP you appear to be wishing for a past life which unfortunately is futile.

[ColinB]

Actually I don't care how Hornby operates that is entirely up to them, the market will decide in due course. It does annoy me that I order a loco and don't see it for 4 years but then if that is how they want to run their business up to them, I am just pointing out that not all people are willing to wait that long.

[81F]

I've been waiting eight years for the Kernow GWR steam railmotors!

[ColinB]

Obviously that is why our hobby doesn't appeal to a child. Perhaps in Hornby's case they would be better off having an abridged catalogue, or a catalogue that contained locos they haven't got round to making so the list of unfinished designs didn't get longer and longer. At the moment with their finances limited as you guys keep telling me, they have no chance of ever catching up. The catalogue at the moment becomes a list of what might be available in a couple of years time. Lucky it is not like one firm I worked for, the average lifespan of an Engineer was 2 years before they left, then the replacement made all the same mistakes.

[What About The Bee]

That's cherry picking evidence to support an already formulated conclusion.

To repeat

Of the 240 locomotives in the catalog, 110 are currently In Stock and will ship immediately.

A child will not be too fussed over era, livery or the "correctness" of running this wagon with that locomotive. They will just play trains.

Which they can do, right now.

It is only when the enthusiast narrows focus, selects an era and particular railway, does the waiting begin. Certainly, you have witnessed the discussions about the order of the carriages, where the restaurant car was, etc. Those are decidedly not a child's conversation.

The child will just play, with whatever they have.

Bee

[ColinB]

You missed the point it was a humorous reply to 81F's post that he had waited 8 years. As to the locos virtually all the ones I have preordered from the last 3 catalogues are still on preorder and they are all not new builds. I think the Yesterday program made it worse because we now know when many were designed.

[LTSR_NSE]

Whilst I still believe that comparisons of yesteryear with now are completely futile… I do concede to Colin’s point about the discouragement for (& reaction of) some children.

As a child I had no real interest in eras, regions, accuracy etc. I simply enjoyed playing with trains. My only interest in liveries was in the ones I thought looked nice!

For me the only limitation was always that most of the models were unaffordable. So on the rare occasions when I was able to save enough (or more usually when my local model shop included it in their ‘unboxed bargains’ window) acquiring a desired model was a very special experience.

(I would certainly have found it decidedly frustrating & off-putting, if all the ‘nice looking’ models shown in the catalogue were never available & there was no real indication as to when they might become so.)

Now I am older, I am still a magpie purchaser (although I have developed more historical interest in railways, both real & model). Fortunately my patience has increased with age, hence I am not frustrated with the current necessity for preordering.

Apologies for rambling - my suggestion for encouraging interest in younger modellers - improve the website sections/filters so they function correctly (& include sections in annual catalogue) to show actually available models & those that require preordering.

[Barry-350851]

I'm not going to pre-order anything again, I don't think there is a danger of anything selling out without opportunities to buy discounted at exhibitions and I also think it is worth seeing the quality of the product or reviews before hand. The recent release debacle has helped me decide this.

If other people want to pre-order, that is up to them.

[96RAF]

The problem is Hornby base their decision to go to production on pre-order sales numbers, so if no one shows such interest then the likelihood of any particular model going ahead is diminished.

Proper market research would do away with the need to use pre-order predictions as the prime indicator and production batch numbers would possibly be better suited to demand.

[SteveM6]

“I’m not going to pre-order again.”

A case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

It seems daft not to pre-order at least some locos. At the very least it’s a gamble that you would be able to pick one up when released but just on price it makes sense. Take the SS Black 5 - I pre-ordered from Hornby when it was announced and have it reserved at a guaranteed price of £225. It is now in the catalogue at £270 and will likely be closer to £300 when it actually arrives.

For me that’s a no brainer.

[Brew Man]

Yes, I've just pre-ordered an LMS 8F for the same price of £225, which will actually be £202.50 with the 10% Club Member discount. Then there are the reward points on top, which is another 10%. Part of my interest in the 8F is nostalgic as it was one of only two locos I owned with my original HD collection. LMS is actually outside of my modelling group.

EDIT: Sorry, slight mis-calculation there, £225 is with the Members' discount. Original price £250.