Loco Derailing (update)

[robert-1311322]

hi there,just a quick update (with pics) on a change to the curve on my layout as the previous curve was causing probs with the loco derailing.Following BEE,S advice about curves and having straight pieces before a curve i have altered the approach (with the space i,ve got) to accommodate a couple of straights, and so far i've not had a single derailment yet. brilliant! I can start to concentrate on other parts of the layout at last.On a different note i wanted to know if this POWER FEED JOINERS from hornby for tt120 gauge are genuine or fake. i've only seen them on on E-BAY, there not even listed on the hornby site which has got me thinking if there real or fakes. do Power feed joiners even exist for tt120? thanks if anyone can clear it up for us before i take a chance and order.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204821481846?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338268676&toolid=10044&customid=EAIaIQobChMI0LOBueLOhwMVsJtQBh1dBikhEAQYBCABEgIwG_D_BwE

[robert-1311322]

4 minutes ago, robert-1311322 said:

hi there,just a quick update (with pics) on a change to the curve on my layout as the previous curve was causing probs with the loco derailing.Following BEE,S advice about curves and having straight pieces before a curve i have altered the approach (with the space i,ve got) to accommodate a couple of straights, and so far i've not had a single derailment yet. brilliant! I can start to concentrate on other parts of the layout at last.On a different note i wanted to know if this POWER FEED JOINERS from hornby for tt120 gauge are genuine or fake. i've only seen them on on E-BAY, there not even listed on the hornby site which has got me thinking if there real or fakes. do Power feed joiners even exist for tt120? thanks if anyone can clear it up for us before i take a chance and order.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204821481846?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338268676&toolid=10044&customid=EAIaIQobChMI0LOBueLOhwMVsJtQBh1dBikhEAQYBCABEgIwG_D_BwE

sorry looks like the pics didnt load i,ll try again!!

[LTSR_NSE]

9 minutes ago, robert-1311322 said:

On a different note i wanted to know if this POWER FEED JOINERS from hornby for tt120 gauge are genuine or fake.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204821481846?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338268676&toolid=10044&customid=EAIaIQobChMI0LOBueLOhwMVsJtQBh1dBikhEAQYBCABEgIwG_D_BwE

They are likely to be both (& neither).

Someone has simply soldered dropper wires to TT:120 fishplates.  The fishplates themselves will probably be genuine (since it would be decidedly odd to go to the trouble of soldering them up - if they don’t actually fit!)

[david_watts1]

As @LTSR_NSE has said, they're Hornby fishplates that someone has soldered droppers to. I'V bought a batch of 10 of each, saves me getting the soldering iron out.

[Fishmanoz]

But not the ideal for attaching droppers although better than no droppers.  Far better to do your own soldering to rails avoiding the fishplates.

[ntpntpntp]

Note "fake", just soldered up by someone using the genuine fishplates.

I agree with Fishy 🙂  They're an easier option if you're not into soldering (definitely a skill worth learning) and definitely neater than the horrible track feed track that comes with the sets,  but the whole point of adding droppers is to avoid the voltage drops due to bad rail/fishplate joints which using powered fishplates doesn't really solve.   If you're fitting your fishplates correctly and tightly you don't need droppers on every length of track as some folk seem to do. 

Edited July 30 by ntpntpntp

[ntpntpntp]

Watch out for "dog-legs" at joints as they can be a cause of derailments 🙂


I'd also suggest that laying track directly on to grass mat isn't the best idea, it doesn't support the track well and also not realistic unless you're planning to ballast all the trackwork?

Edited July 30 by ntpntpntp

[What About The Bee]

4 hours ago, robert-1311322 said:

...Following BEE,S advice about curves and having straight pieces before a curve i have altered the approach (with the space i,ve got) to accommodate a couple of straights, and so far i've not had a single derailment yet....

I am pleased that following recommended practices has resolved a nagging issue.  Good on ya!  Have fun!

 You really should have a careful look at that front bogie, as many others have recommended.  

Bee

[Rallymatt]

Another vote for soldering directly to rails, it’s good soldering practice and usually the fishplates are issue. I know some people squeal when some of us bang on about well laid track but it really is the most fundamental aspect of good performance. Time spent getting track right pays back many times over. 

[Hobby11]

To be fair Peco sell ones for their code 55 track (which also fit N and 009 track) which includes TT120 so all it is is somebody spotting a gap in the market!

[Brew Man]

Peco also do them for code 100 AFAIK. As others have said though, they are best avoided in favour of soldering direct to the track.

[Hobby11]

On the subject on relying simply on fishplates for electrical continuity, I've been running exhibition layouts in DC since the early 90s, all my layouts have relied, and still do, on the fishplate for electrical continuity. Granted none of them is a large layout (the largest being just under 13ft), but the point is that you don't need to use droppers on every piece of track for DC (maybe not even for DCC but I've never used to so don't know?). I've had one or two issues where simply "nipping up" the fishplate solved the issue, but I've also had more issues with soldered connections than with fishplates, though that probably says more about my soldering than anything else and  is probably a good argument for using those "wired" fishplates! On a large DC layout it would be wise to have some sort of continuous wire simply to reduce voltage loss but on small ones the majority of us get away without.

NOTE: The above is my own opinion based on 30+ years of exhibition layouts, yours may be different, but that doesn't make mine wrong and yours right, that's down to the individual to decide.

[Brew Man]

13 minutes ago, Hobby11 said:

NOTE: The above is my own opinion based on 30+ years of exhibition layouts, yours may be different, but that doesn't make mine wrong and yours right, that's down to the individual to decide.

Absolutely! Life would be very dull if we all followed the same recommendations.

[robert-1311322]

19 hours ago, ntpntpntp said:

Watch out for "dog-legs" at joints as they can be a cause of derailments 🙂


I'd also suggest that laying track directly on to grass mat isn't the best idea, it doesn't support the track well and also not realistic unless you're planning to ballast all the trackwork?

thanks for reply.as for the grass matt, I'm still experimenting  with the layout and once I'm happy with it i will be using a cork underlay and ballasting. I don't wont to start gluing/ballasting tacking down if there are issue's ,once its working right i will start to make it a permanent fixture.

[robert-1311322]

15 hours ago, Rallymatt said:

Another vote for soldering directly to rails, it’s good soldering practice and usually the fishplates are issue. I know some people squeal when some of us bang on about well laid track but it really is the most fundamental aspect of good performance. Time spent getting track right pays back many times over. 

I'm very dubious at using a soldering iron on rails for fear of making a mess and hence wasting money. Is it really that hard to do as id like to at least give soldering to rails  a go if it  gives better electrical continuity.

[dBerriff]

I have soldered droppers onto N-gauge track and I was pretty nervous about melting the plastic sleepers. I "got away with it" but it was more of a challenge than building printed circuit board kits. If you find using pre-soldered fishplates more acceptable then  unless you are building for a public layout then I would agree with Brew Man and Hobby11 and just do what you are most comfortable with. I have been trying out TT:120 track layouts with just a single train set feed (the ugly one!) and with point settings breaking the oval, it all holds together surprisingly well. With multiple droppers it can only get better, fishplates or direct to track.

I would suggest single-core wire (jumper wire) for the droppers as it is easier to handle and solder at these smaller scales. You do not need the flexibility of mult-strand.

If you use DCC then the higher voltage and alternating polarity might well reduce galvanic corrosion build up across the fishplate joints. I do not know for sure; this is just a theory based on anecdotal evidence.

[robert-1311322]

4 minutes ago, dBerriff said:

I have soldered droppers onto N-gauge track and I was pretty nervous about melting the plastic sleepers. I "got away with it" but it was more of a challenge than building printed circuit board kits. If you find using pre-soldered fishplates more acceptable then  unless you are building for a public layout then I would agree with Brew Man and Hobby11 and just do what you are most comfortable with. I have been trying out TT:120 track layouts with just a single train set feed (the ugly one!) and with point settings breaking the oval, it all holds together surprisingly well. With multiple droppers it can only get better, fishplates or direct to track.

I would suggest single-core wire (jumper wire) for the droppers as it is easier to handle and solder at these smaller scales. You do not need the flexibility of mult-strand.

If you use DCC then the higher voltage and alternating polarity might well reduce galvanic corrosion build up across the fishplate joints. I do not know for sure; this is just a theory based on anecdotal evidence.

Cheers dBerriff, think i might practice on apiece of old 00gauge track i got lying g around and see how that goes. failing that i ll probably stick to fish plate connections pre wired.

[Rallymatt]

I don’t think a DCC current will have any beneficial properties in reducing galvanic corrosion. 
The trick to soldering on rails is to scratch up the surface, use flux and tin the rail, the soldering iron tip should be clean and have a thin layer of solder on, you are aiming to heat the rail not the solder. 350 -380deg setting on the iron, dab the solder on and it will immediately melt, remove the heat and let the solder solidify. Tin the droppers, now to join all you need do is have the two tinned parts touching and a light touch from the iron will melt the solder, remove heat and both lots of solder will have flowed together. Practice makes perfect but it is possible to solder droppers without melting the sleepers, the key is high heat for a very short period, prolonged heating allows the heat to move through the rail and result in melted sleepers or just the proximity of hot iron and plastic for a long time. 

[ntpntpntp]

Yup, soldering takes a little practice but you'll soon get the hang of it 🙂   

I'm used to soldering feeds to N gauge rail (been doing it since the 70s).  Use a small bit on the iron (mine's 2mm I think). 

Clean the rail side or bottom depending on how you want to position the joint.  Add the tiniest dot of flux (end of a cocktail stick) and tin the rail (pre-apply a little solder)

 

Bare 5mm (ish) of the end of the wire.  If it's multi-strand give it a twist.   Tin the end.

 

Not everyone does this next step but I prefer to bend the end of the wire into an L shape so it will run sideways along the rail.

 

Bring the two together and heat so that the solder flows.  It shouldn't be so long that the surrounding sleepers start to melt 🙂
Once solid give it a quick tug to make sure. 

 

... and here's one soldered to the underside of the rail if you prefer. 

 

 I usually lay the track first then solder to the side of the rail, but as it's Peco's special code 55 rail the joint will be below ballast height.  I did these the other day. Painted over to disguise them, the ballast will completely hide them.


If you do accidentally melt a sleeper just cut it off completely and glue a replacement into place before you paint and ballast the track. 

Edited July 31 by ntpntpntp

[Hobby11]

Best bet is to get a decent soldering iron first, Antex 25w is my choice.

Second get some old track and offcuts of wire and practice, practice, practice! Make sure the surfaces are clean and tin both the wire and the rail.

NTP and I do the same things when soldering so just follow him!

 

Never use single core wire (such as telephone wire) for normal wiring as its easily broken. The dropper wires might be OK with this ( I'm assuming DCC!), but even then use decent stuff, not thin telephone wire!

Edited July 31 by Hobby11

[ntpntpntp]

8 minutes ago, Hobby11 said:

Never use single core wire (such as telephone wire) for normal wiring as its easily broken

All the under-board wiring on my original 1995 layout was done with telephone wire because I was given loads of offcuts of the thick 40 pair trunk wiring when our company office block was re-wired 🙂 Handy to have 80 differently colour-coded wires when wiring up a cab control DC layout with dozens of point motors and signals 🙂 It has survived perfectly well but I will say it is a bit thin for the power requirement on longer runs and I have noticed a few slight voltage drops over the years.  I've still got a couple of coils stashed in the garage rafters but nowadays I use 16/.02 equipment wire for most things, sometimes 7/.02 for light duty (eg. LED lights  😀 )  and for modular baseboards with a "through bus" wiring scheme that'll be 24/.02 as per the specifications of the modular standards I build to.  

[robert-1311322]

22 hours ago, dBerriff said:

I have soldered droppers onto N-gauge track and I was pretty nervous about melting the plastic sleepers. I "got away with it" but it was more of a challenge than building printed circuit board kits. If you find using pre-soldered fishplates more acceptable then  unless you are building for a public layout then I would agree with Brew Man and Hobby11 and just do what you are most comfortable with. I have been trying out TT:120 track layouts with just a single train set feed (the ugly one!) and with point settings breaking the oval, it all holds together surprisingly well. With multiple droppers it can only get better, fishplates or direct to track.

I would suggest single-core wire (jumper wire) for the droppers as it is easier to handle and solder at these smaller scales. You do not need the flexibility of mult-strand.

If you use DCC then the higher voltage and alternating polarity might well reduce galvanic corrosion build up across the fishplate joints. I do not know for sure; this is just a theory based on anecdotal evidence.

Cheers dBerriff, think i might practice on apiece of old 00gauge track i got lying g around and see how that goes. failing that i ll probably stick to fish plate connections pre wired. 

 

19 hours ago, ntpntpntp said:

All the under-board wiring on my original 1995 layout was done with telephone wire because I was given loads of offcuts of the thick 40 pair trunk wiring when our company office block was re-wired 🙂 Handy to have 80 differently colour-coded wires when wiring up a cab control DC layout with dozens of point motors and signals 🙂 It has survived perfectly well but I will say it is a bit thin for the power requirement on longer runs and I have noticed a few slight voltage drops over the years.  I've still got a couple of coils stashed in the garage rafters but nowadays I use 16/.02 equipment wire for most things, sometimes 7/.02 for light duty (eg. LED lights  😀 )  and for modular baseboards with a "through bus" wiring scheme that'll be 24/.02 as per the specifications of the modular standards I build to.  

Again thanks to all for advice and knowledge about something i know little about, im going get started practising on the old track a few times.

[Hobby11]

21 minutes ago, robert-1311322 said:

think i might practice on apiece of old 00gauge track i got lying g around and see how that goes. failing that i ll probably stick to fish plate connections pre wired. 

Just make sure the rail is nickel silver and not steel!