white locomotive to tender plug what to buy

[olly]

Has anyone on here got any experience with repairing the white locomotive to tender plug on Hornby and other models?

I know you can buy as a spare part, the four-pin connector with wires attached and then solder that to the Loco but usually it's only one pin that needs replacing.

I've seen you can buy the small connectors and the crimping tool online from places like eBay and Amazon 

What I'm not sure of is what size I need.

I've included a few links to the products I've been looking at

if anybody could tell me if these are suitable for Model railway use it would be very helpful

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134781932915

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134708923115

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335085754722

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266159397039

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/385308446139

[atom3624]

I do admit they permit a better contact / transmission of current from tender to locomotive than the previous 'pin and fingers' but I hate the things generally, so fragile!

My preference would be a pre-wired plug, but the one you indicate being multi-coloured is great from a wiring perspective, but is too visible once the locomotive is circulating.

I'm sure I've seen a few similar ones with all black wires as well.

That's my £0.04 (2024 don't forget! Inflation!)

Al.

[What About The Bee]

Hi Olly

Crimping tools are sized to the conductor. Once you know the gauge (diameter) of the wire, without the insulating jacket, then the size of the pins and crimping tool has a direct relationship. If it isn't printed on the wire itself, measure it.

Having dealt professionally mountains of conductors, I note that you do not have a pin extraction tool as part of your repertoire. Pins lock into the non-conducting surround based on the direction of connector insertion. Inserting the connector should not drive the pins out of the back of the housing. To release a pin, the pin extractor is driven in to the back of the connector hole (where the wire comes out) until the locking pins release, and then the pin and extractor are simultaneously withdrawn.

Bee

[olly]

Hi Olly

Crimping tools are sized to the conductor. Once you know the gauge (diameter) of the wire, without the insulating jacket, then the size of the pins and crimping tool has a direct relationship. If it isn't printed on the wire itself, measure it.

Having dealt professionally mountains of conductors, I note that you do not have a pin extraction tool as part of your repertoire. Pins lock into the non-conducting surround based on the direction of connector insertion. Inserting the connector should not drive the pins out of the back of the housing. To release a pin, the pin extractor is driven in to the back of the connector hole (where the wire comes out) until the locking pins release, and then the pin and extractor are simultaneously withdrawn.

Bee

 

 

that was going to be my next question was there a tool to remove the pins

I've done lots on locos and radio-controlled models using a needle or a blade or something but having the proper tool would be easier going to look for one

[olly]

to keep things simple can anyone tell me what size I need for locos?

there are a lot of different sizes and names mentioned

[atom3624]

Be VERY careful with the 'special removal tool' - it doesn't!

It's better to carefully start off the removal with a decent fine blade screwdriver, creating a small gap for the tool to grip. If you don't it will end in tears.

Al.

[What About The Bee]

Atom

Advising someone to use a a tool that isn't designed for the task, as opposed to a tool that was designed for the task, is interesting.

Cables, connectors, pins and conductors are as much art as science. Owning a tool does not guarantee that you know how to use that tool.

Further, having one particular pin extractor does not guarantee that it will function for any random pin. They are sized to the pin, tailor made for the extraction, bespoke for the exact connector. If you know the size and type, then answer Olly's question and tell him.

I will guarantee you that had I observed your practice in any professional environment I was an engineer in, I would have a chat with your supervisor and rejected the cable as deficient.

Bee

[LTSR_NSE]

@atom & @bee - please be aware you are comparing apples & oranges.

@atom is referring to Hornby’s plug extractor/remover/disconnector - for disconnecting plug from socket. (A glorified pair of tweezers that fits the plug exactly - but is best used on slightly pre-loosened plug!)

Whereas @bee is describing specialist engineer’s tools for extracting the individual wires/pins from within the plugs!

[What About The Bee]

Thank you LT&SR_NSE.

Olly was referring to crimping tools and pins, and I thought Atom was proceeding along those lines. Individual pins could be extracted in the way Atom described, albeit not recommended.

In fairness, I recall that the extraction tool goes in the front side, not the wire side of some connectors. Again, connector dependent and art.

Bee

[ntpntpntp]

Still haven't seen anyone actually answer the question and advise which style and size of connector is needed?

[Simon-372339]

The question has to be asked how do you keep breaking 1 pin?

As for repairing your own, is it really cost effective considering the hassle buying the specialist extractor, correct wire, crimper, plus failed attempts when pre-wired ones are available.

The above being dependent upon the plugs being designed to be dis-assembled and rewired.

[atom3624]

Thanks gents.

Herein why I - put politely - strongly dislike those white plugs.

Industry-correct and appropriate crimping and gripping tools sound great, but are not generally in the average model railway enthusiasts' toolbox.

Al.

[olly]

We seem to be going around in circles here a bit like our trains 🤣

I thought this was a fairly simple question what ones do I need to do this

I appreciate all the technical knowledge but it's not really relevant to my use in model railways. I'm not making electronic devices for sale or using it in automotive or aircraft

To answer the question about why I want to be able to repair the plugs myself it would be a lot easier and convenient for me to to be able to do it myself. I also fit sound into older locos a the plugs and sockets would be useful. Plus I would rather do things myself than have to get someone else to do it

Thanks for the help so far

[ColinB]

The connector is a JST type. I think it is their micro range, generally a search of EBay gives you more information. They come in various pitches but that doesn't matter if you are just buying the pins. I think I have tried crimping them in the past but they are so small and the crimp never seems to work that well, so I think I crimped them and soldered them. Generally I tend to just buy a new lead as I can never get the ones I fix to be reliable. I did a quick look on EBay but I couldn't find the pins on their own but I will leave you to look.

[What About The Bee]

https://iotexpert.com/jst-connector-crimping-insanity/

[What About The Bee]

To help you narrow it down from the "50,000" JST types quoted in the article referenced above, I attempted to get the nomenclature off of the connector itself.

[The son of Triangman]

We used to machine crimp these at work by the shed load. They are a fiddly job to crimp by hand, but as can be seen from Bee's post it is quite possible

[ColinB]

I figured long ago that machine crimping was the way to go.

[P-Henny]

None of the JST Connector types linked to in the original post is correct. The correct JST connector is their SH type, whereas the OP links are for a XH type. Given the sheer range of JST Micro connectors they do, just saying that they are JST brand is not very helpful.

Specifically the JST product code for the Hornby 4 way plug housing is:

SHR-04V-S-B [with Flange type]

The matching JST Crimp pins product code is:

SSH-003T-P0.2-H

Here is a link to the JST Catalogue Page (DataSheet) for the SH connector range:

eSH.pdf

I have crimped these successfully by hand using small 'Watchmakers' pliers. The crimping pliers in the original poster's links are not specifically designed for either the XH or the SH pins. They are generic in nature and won't replicate the function of the very expensive JST specific tools [100s of £] that aren't usually available to purchase readily by the public. IMO buying one of those 'Generic' type of crimping pliers for JST connectors is a waste of money. I speak from experience as I have several of them of different designs acting as 'paper weights'. My most successful SSH pin crimping has been done with my 'Watch Makers' pliers.

I didn't reply earlier because the JST product code information was stored on my PC and I didn't have access to it until now. Been using my Android tablet since Wed 10th when the OP posted.

Want to buy some in the UK. They are sold by Farnell - see links below:

SHR-04V-S-B JST, Connector Housing, SH, Receptacle | Farnell UK

SSH-003T-P0.2 JST, Contact, SH, Socket | Farnell UK

Using the official Hornby plug extractor tool can, if used correctly, help prevent breaking the wires in the first place:

X6468 Extractor Tool For Steam Loco Tender Plug

If you want to buy just the SSH-033T-PO.2-H pins pre-terminated on wires on their own, then they are sold on ebay as 'jumper wires' a 12" [304mm] length of wire with a terminal pin crimped at each end that can be cut in half to produce two 6" [152mm] crimped wires.

JUMPER SSH-003T-P0.2-H X2 12 | eBay

However that all said. If the wire is broken off inside the white plastic housing, which is where it usually breaks, then extracting the broken terminal pin will be nigh on impossible without damaging the housing. When you insert the terminal releasing tool (if you can find one) in the other end you have to pull the pin out from the opposite end. If the wire has broken off inside the housing there is very little to grip onto to pull it out.

IMO these connectors are designed to be replaced not repaired when a wire breaks off inside the housing.

[Simmo009]

In relation to this subject, I have a plug with a loose pin, wire still attached. I can insert it back into the plug and everything works fine. Would a dot of superglue be ok to secure it in place?

[P-Henny]

@Simmo

If you look very carefully at the crimped pin under a magnifying glass, you should be able to identify the locking tab and give it a slight adjustment to fully engage it in the housing. If the locking tab is perfectly OK, then the housing itself is probably worn where the locking tab engages and the glue may be the only practical option left.

Superglue is very fluid and could easily spread onto the electrical contact area and in essence insulate it.

If glue was to be used, I would suggest two part epoxy. When mixed it is much thicker than Superglue and a small dab placed on the wire side of the plug is less likely to ingress deeply into the housing to contaminate the actual pin surfaces.

[Simmo009]

Thanks P. I have several different superglue of assorted gloopiness, so will use a small amount of the least runny. I will do this unconnected to be on the safe side. I will closely inspect first to see if I can do it without. It is a first run Clan (McLeod) that I got stupidly cheap as it was an unreliable runner, apart from this it is mint.

[olly]

 just an update

I’ve ordered some JST Sh connectors from eBay 

To order them from Farnell would have been expensive for what they are as they have a small order charge of about £9 So I would’ve ended up paying more in postage and charges that for the actual item

Here’s a link to the ones I got from eBay in case it’s any use to anyone else

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234257100404?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=XrR6YGqKT9-&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=uIh1fqKpRCW&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

thanks for all your help everyone

[ColinB]

Great, thanks for the information.