Darren-373700 Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 I know this subject is meat and drink for most of you, but what IS the best points wiring practise? I've watched so many Youtoob videos about it, but still confused. Most of the wiring demo's resemble a rats nest under the boards!! Do I need bonding wires if I'm only running longer locos and not shunters? Or will track connections at the toe suffice?? Do I need to cut off the little joiner wires? Do I need the frog to be switched .. ? All I am 'building' is a single line loft lay-out with a station passing loop (hence the headache with TWO points) and a multi track fiddle yard I'm going to have to switch manually as I'm struggling with two points let alone ten or so.. I want to be able to have a switch, on a control panel of some sort (perspex or plywood) with a basic track plan and control TWO points ..(MTB 1 which I have purchased) ..with an LED indicator to show which line is open for running traffic. I have not got any expensive DCC point command control or sophisticated computer run automation like most of the Youtubers.. just a basic 16v supply, a Select and now my phone with the new HM7000 range. Has anyone got an image of a straight forward, no nonsense basic, layman's easy to understand wiring diagram please. My work in the loft lately has become, getting up there, looking at it for half an hour, moving some wood around, convince myself I don't know what I'm doing for the best to the points, so, I cannot lay them, nor any track as it needs lining up. I need to join a club to get some basic skills🤔 Sorry for the rant but I've hit the buffers before I've started! Thanks in advance Daz Mod edit: your title was held back for moderation as it contained a banned word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 (edited) Which points will you be using? A lot of the "DCC friendly" modifications out there on the net are aimed at live frog points such as Peco Electrofrog. If you're using traditional dead frog points then these don't really need modification at all. If you intend to run digital and want all the trackwork to be live then additional feeds will probably be necessary, or you can consider the little wire track clips (I'm not a fan of those myself). Live frogs are definitely a better choice for a layout running short wheelbase shunters at low speeds to ensure you have the most reliable running, I've used them with my N layouts since the 1980s, with no modification other than a switched feed to the point frog to supplement the blade contact, and isolating joiners are the frog V rails if there is a power feed to that rail further along. Edited March 31 by ntpntpntp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren-373700 Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 Hi NT .. I'm using Peco Electrofrog Streamline points SL-E86 up to SL-E89 two of each left and right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brew Man Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 They're the best choice IMO, though a little more complicated to set up. The Peco, 'Shows you How' guides are quite good and very cheap to buy - around £1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren-373700 Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 1 minute ago, Brew Man said: They're the best choice IMO, though a little more complicated to set up. The Peco, 'Shows you How' guides are quite good and very cheap to buy - around £1. A little more complicated you're not kidding especially if you want added extras such as the panel lighting etc ... what adds to the problem is on the right side of the layout the boards are lower to add depth levels for the landscaping and this has caused the problem that the points on that side will need to be on an elevated section and so the point motor will have to be surface mounted or some right fiddly wiring between boards if you know what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren-373700 Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 (edited) Another issue is the wire size ... it ranges from 7-02 to 16-02 for track feeds ... which is best? I've opted for the 7-02 but then when you see the size of the frog wire on the points and its very thin and fragile, nothing like what I've been advised to use ... can ethernet cable be used as a frog extension perhaps .. got loads of that kicking about 😁 Edited March 31 by Darren-373700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 (edited) Peco Electrofrogs really aren't complicated at all, I consider that to be misunderstanding / misinformation. They will work "out of the box" without any wiring changes, just a couple of isolating joiners on the frog V rails if the track beyond will have its own power feed (as tends to be the case with DCC). Couldn't be any more simple. If you wish, you can power the frog via a changeover switch synchronised to the point motor (or a switch acting as a "lever" for wire-in-tube). It's not mandatory but it does remove the total reliance on the point blades for continuity. I always add the frog switch as I have an exhibition layout and I want best possible reliability. The oldest part of the layout is 28 years old now and still working perfectly. One slight drawback of Electrofrog points is both blades are at the same polarity as shown in the image above. Some folk find that wheel flanges can sometimes short when passing between the open blade and the stock rail, it's more of a problem with DCC than DC due to the full voltage in the track and it can cause the DCC system to cut power. That's why you find web pages/videos etc. about "DCC Friendly" modification as a "best practice". This involves isolating the frog from the closure rails by cutting near the frog, and bonding the closure rails to the stock rails. The frog is then dead unless you add a polarity switch. This modification is mostly aimed at people using finescale pointwork with a narrow gap between the open blade and the stock rail. Peco's Unifrog points are designed to be "DCC Friendly" as sold, no modifications necessary. You mention a desire to have panel indicators: I'd suggest either use the standard Peco motor and twin microswitch combination (can be surface mounted if necessary), or use simple surface point motors and an electronic "point indicator" module which is connected to the point motor push buttons / toggle switches / stud&probe. 7/.02 wire is fine for short lengths. 16/.02 or 24/.02 is a better choice for longer runs and for bus wiring carrying the full DCC current. Edited March 31 by ntpntpntp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brew Man Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 (edited) Yes, but to have them working to their full potential you need to do a bit more like frog switches for instance, and as you mention wheels shorting between the open blade and the stock rail. So I don't think it was misinformation at all. Edited March 31 by Brew Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren-373700 Posted March 31 Author Share Posted March 31 Cheers fellas ... I'll sleep on it, I will go with the bonding tip and go with a switchable frog no doubt, but I've just broken my wire strippers so that's it for today. I have managed to set my MTB MP1 motors to 3mm swing without breaking anything!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry-350851 Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 On the wire thickness, my understanding is: Voltage drops and DCC signal degrades over distance Thicker wire means the signal and voltage degrades less fewer joins in the wire is better short lengths of thin wire are fine So on a typical longer layout, people use a thicker wire for their "bus" that goes around under the track and then the thinner wire is used for the "droppers" that attach the track to the bus. The thinner wire being easier to work with and hide when attached to the track. The droppers are usually kept quite short. The thin frog wire on the point is OK for what it needs to do but you wouldn't use it for any more than the few inches of length that it comes with. On the point wiring, it depends where you want to go with the layout. If you want to paint and ballast the track in the future or if you are happy with it bare. If you are leaving it bare then you can stick the insulated rail joiners on the V and leave it as it is. If in the future it stops working all you need to do is clean and adjust the contact between stock rail and switch blade. That way you can use the switch on the MP1 for your route indicator. If you are painting and/or ballasting then that can cause problems and it is better to modify the point so it is powered by the switch on the MP1. But then you won't have the switch on the MP1 free to use as a route indicator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapples Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 This bloke loves the Hornby Approach to model railway and makes something that always seems complicated to a beginner appear to easy that he even amazes himself in some videos [PLEASE SEE BELOW LINKS TO A FEW]. Best advice, stop overthinking get in and try some things out. There is a mountain of YouTube and community right here and I have personally had direct dealings with the tech teams from both Hornby, DCC Concepts & indeed Peco who proposed solutions that should work and even I could see it would not so sometimes there is no true Oracle. It's the Fun of the hobby. Go with your instinct and if it feels good do it. I'm no purist I stick with the Hornby approach but as you will see some of these videos take the 'basic and non pro world' of model railway and still creates something simple easy cheap and still eye catching. Notice some of the best images of layouts featured in Hornby publications feature the Hornby Track and its insulfrog and if those glossy images sucked me into the hobby and i want to recreate them what does the inconvenience of one little black piece of plastic have to do with anything. All locos run seamlessly on DCC even at speed step 1 no drops or shorts NO COMPLICATED WIRING! and of course if that little bit of black plastic bothers you then just paint it and no one will ever know. And if they do so what it's all about YOU and your layout! ENJOY share your progress with us its a hoot and FREE STORAGE On YouTube is 50% why i shoot a video and leave them up there. Thats back to being cheap ha ha ha. Enjoy: EASY Peco Wiring Insulfrog Points for Hornby DCC Layout OR Easy Soldering Power Feeds to Insulfrog Hornby DCC Layout OR EASY Wiring Single Slip Insulfrog DCC Hornby Elite Layout OPOAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren-373700 Posted April 7 Author Share Posted April 7 OK .. so I am kind of starting to put some point motors in soon .. MTB mp1 to be exact, I have the points (Peco Electrofrog Streamline Code 100) I have watched the videos ^^ and can't see the points for wires everywhere. I have cut the two linking wires, bonded the stock rails to the closure rails and included two dropper wires from this area! Also added two insulated joiners at the frog bit. I have shortened and added a green wire to the flimsy frog wire, so from under the baseboard I have a red and black wire (track) and the green frog wire. Is this all I need? From the picture below, where do I put the wire to the frog? The aux is switched one way or another, so do I need TWO frog wires?? Else how does it change polarity..This is what is confusing me, I just cannot see the obvious. I have soldered in lights and breakout boards etc in new and old locos, but this electrical voodoo is killing me. I am using a switch only (on-off-on) , no electronic control automatics, please help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 You use the change over switch on the mb1 - the top 3 terminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 (edited) When you say "I have cut the two linking wires" are those wires which link across small gaps in the closure rails? I work in N gauge so I'm not used to there being cuts already in the rails at that position (people have to make those cuts themselves as part of "DCC friendly" modifications of N gauge points). I'm looking at the diagrams about 3/4 down this page PECO Electrofrogs and DCC (dccwiki.com) With regard to switching the frog: Looking at that image of the MP1, the top 3 terminals are for a changeover switch as @96RAF says. The markings look like the top 2 terminals are the switched contacts and the 3rd one down is the common, so: the switched terminals got to your DCC bus and the common terminal goes to the frog. If you find you get a short, try swapping the switched connections over. [image from here]: Wiring Facing Electrofrogs - New Railway Modellers Forums Edited April 7 by ntpntpntp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren-373700 Posted April 7 Author Share Posted April 7 So the common is the frog green wire and the other two are spliced from the red and black droppers from the points/DCC bus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry-350851 Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 1 hour ago, Darren-373700 said: So the common is the frog green wire and the other two are spliced from the red and black droppers from the points/DCC bus? Correct. Green into the 3rd one down, red and black in the top two as ntpntpntp said. Separately, If you are using the wiring you have shown for LED position indicators AND using on-off-on switches, the LEDs will only light when the switch is in an "on" position. There's no problem leaving them on though as the MP1 cuts power completely at the end of its travel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren-373700 Posted April 7 Author Share Posted April 7 Cool ... thanks, once you see it in your mind makes it clear .. I didn't realise for some reason there would be two sets of power going into these modules. Thanks for sticking with me NTPNT' .. and Baz, good thinking, glad you told me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren-373700 Posted April 22 Author Share Posted April 22 Hi chaps .. me again, am I right in thinking that because I'm using MTB motors which have an auto power off at the end of each switching position, I can 'daisy chain' the power feeds to each point motor .. and daisy chain each negative from the 'On - On' panel switches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) @Darren-373700 so you're assuming you'll only ever fire the daisy-chained motors all together in a single action on a single switch? Doesn't sound like the best way to wire them up to be honest. Run a common return certainly, but keep the positive side separate. A diode matrix is the commonly used method of using a single switch to fire multiple point motors for routing such as in a fiddleyard. The diodes then allow different route to fire different combinations of motors left or right as required, without affecting other motors. [edit] unless maybe I'm misunderstanding the question? The way I think of point motor wiring, the panel switches are wired together with a daisy-chained common positive connection, thus when you throw the switch this connects through to the appropriate left or right "throw" terminal. There is then a daisy-chained common return from the point motors back to the supply. Can you draw a schematic of what you mean? Edited April 22 by ntpntpntp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren-373700 Posted April 22 Author Share Posted April 22 (edited) I'm thinking more like your second reasoning NT .. only following the diagram of the MTB motor above ^^ the positives go to the motor not the switch.. and the negatives are on the middle peg of the On On .... scratches head I don't want multiple points to switch at once .. yet .. 4 switches to control 4 points at each 'corner' of the layout as it were. Edited April 22 by Darren-373700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted April 23 Share Posted April 23 (edited) @Darren-373700 Ah yes, I went back and looked at the MTB diagram above and yes you are correct they wire it as common positive to the motor. Same idea, just the opposite convention to the way I've always wired point motors with the switches on the positive side of the circuit. I guess their way better mimics the polarity of DCC Accessory decoder outputs which tend to be common positive. So... yes you can "daisy-chain" or "star-wire" the common power feeds to the motors, whichever is easiest under your baseboard. Keep in mind that if a connection in the chain fails you loose power to all points beyond the failure. I usually end up chaining runs of motors which are physically close together, but running separate chains from a central distribution block to various parts of the baseboard. Edited April 23 by ntpntpntp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren-373700 Posted April 23 Author Share Posted April 23 Great stuff NTP ... I may even get this up and running before the decades out .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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