More ill-informed TT120 criticism from young Samuel

[Rallymatt]

@ColinB, I’d challenge that Sam sells anything for any manufacturer. If he didn’t exist it wouldn’t make any difference. There is no such thing as bad publicity for a manufacturer who defends themselves from slanderous comments. Someone else would fill the space and hopefully learn from other’s downfall if it came to it. The whole ‘influencer’ thing is massively over hyped. It’s not actually a thing. All these ‘selling and earning’ social media platforms are going to look very different in 12months. 

[ColinB]

Before this thread gets locked I thought I would add that Sam did an interesting review of a  Bachmann B1. This is one of the few occasions where the two main suppliers make the same model. He was quite fair in that the Bachmann had a better paint job but on virtually every other aspect the Hornby was better. Highlights were Hornby has tender pickups and a better cab detail. Now these things don't get mentioned in the manufacturer specs for the models but they would definitely make a difference in which one was the better one to purchase.

[ColinB]

Just now, Rallymatt said:

@ColinB, I’d challenge that Sam sells anything for any manufacturer. If he didn’t exist it wouldn’t make any difference. There is no such thing as bad publicity for a manufacturer who defends themselves from slanderous comments. Someone else would fill the space and hopefully learn from other’s downfall if it came to it. The whole ‘influencer’ thing is massively over hyped. It’s not actually a thing. All these ‘selling and earning’ social media platforms are going to look very different in 12months. 

Well I for one have bought models that he has reviewed, quite often because I didn't know they existed. I am sure I am not the only one. Similar thing could be said for Jenny Kirk. Then there is the subject of DCC fitting because he does an analysis of the mechanism, he highlights the ease with which the DCC socket can be reached, which again is very important to someone like me. I like to know if when I take the body off what else may fall off as well. 

[Rallymatt]

@ColinB, I appreciate your comments but there was life before Sam’s Trains. The majority of the hobby find models and solutions and share fixes etc without all the drama. No YouTube reviewer is indispensable, if one gets taken out, another will pop up, like Chinese Knottweed 

[NSE456]

9 minutes ago, ColinB said:

Well I for one have bought models that he has reviewed, quite often because I didn't know they existed. I am sure I am not the only one. Similar thing could be said for Jenny Kirk. Then there is the subject of DCC fitting because he does an analysis of the mechanism, he highlights the ease with which the DCC socket can be reached, which again is very important to someone like me. I like to know if when I take the body off what else may fall off as well. 

Agreed. YouTube is a very useful source of research, getting some knowledge from people who have been hands on with the products and also the potential to learn details I've not been able to find in documentation. I usually look up 2-3 different reviews if possible as it gives a better range of opinions imo.

I also do tend to use YouTube for finding news and infomation on new products as I can have it playing in the background while doing other things.

[HST Mainline]

21 hours ago, NSE456 said:

That said since TT models are new I would guess they are the same or very similar models.

They are exactly the same. Same running number, so probably just going into a bigger box at the end of the assembly line along with some tracks.

I don't get why people cannot just enjoy the fact that they can get a good value package. I get why it is annoying to have paid for another set, but isn't that just the way life is? Deal with it, and do not complain. Complaining gets you absolutely nowhere.

Sam has a grudge against Hornby (for some reason I, at least, do not know). He also lacks insight into how models are made, since he keeps suggesting that smaller should be cheaper. That is not how manufacturing works. It is not the materials that cost, it is the development, and that cost is in the same ballpark no matter the scale.

I used to enjoy Sam's videos. Now, I don't enjoy them that much anymore. His behavior in some videos also hints that he is seeing himself as a voice that matters, like the Bachmann video where he threatens them "I dare you" he said. Nothing good usually comes from being too sure of your own relevance. I don't like that.

Personally, I like a review when it is not filled with personal opinions and grudges. Just let me see the model and listen to how it performs. I also do not care much about what the box is like, because we have all seen that a thousand times or more. 😊

[96RAF]

If you think his videos are biased simply to generate clicks to enhance personal gain report him to you-tube, his sponsors and any other associated agency and if substantiated you could get him shut down. No doubt Hornby and others have their legal guys looking at these things to gauge any future action they think necessary.

[Rallymatt]

Rob has made the point more obviously than I was hinting at. Hornby today is quite different to Hornby 6 months ago. Serious businessmen with serious financial commitments. Gentlemen and ladies, place your bets…… 

[BritInVanCA]

To quote @GMD “It’s almost not worth posting”. I think we should have stopped there! 😂

[SMR248]

I can't really see why everyone was getting so upset.  He made some fair points in my opinion and nothing obviously slanderous / libellous.

[Tim Allen]

I generally don't watch much of his videos anymore, like some other YouTuber they are anti TT and if I think it's unwarranted then I just down vote the video and stop watching it.  I don't get the anti TT from people, if you don't like the scale then go or stick with OO or N. There's nothing wrong with preferring another scale of TT just like there's nothing wrong liking TT. 

We used to be allowed to have different options and views but these days whether its politics, music, religion, view on the environment and now model railway gauges its a case of if you don't agree with me you're wrong, I'm right and here's some videos to prove it.

[D9020 Nimbus]

On 18/04/2024 at 03:45, Generic Hornby Username said:

 

I’m not going to pretend this is a perfect list. If there are any N Scale fans that notice an omission, please let me know! 
 

The following list are newly-tooled Graham Farish/EFE N Scale models that were released in 2023. These are the announcements I found going through the Bachmann blog and by cross-referencing the Hatton’s directory. Here’s the list: 

1. HRA Bogie Wagon 
2. Class 14 (tooling upgrade on 2010 model) 
3. Class 47 (tooling upgrade on 2008 model)
4. MXA “Lobster” Bogie Wagon
5. PBA Tiger Wagons
6. Class 450 
7. Class 158
8. Class 69
9. Austerity Tank Engine

In terms of investment, Hornby is more committed to TT:120 in 2024 than Bachmann was to British N Scale in 2023. So far, I count 3 new toolings in N Scale from Bachmann in 2024 (1 locomotive and 2 wagon types). More are likely to be announced, but I doubt Bachmann N Scale will outpace Hornby’s TT:120 release schedule in 2024. 
 

This should end worries about Hornby’s commitment to the scale. Or maybe Bachmann is not committed to N Scale… 🤔😉🤣

The Ivatt 2MT was released during the year (existing body, chassis upgrade for DCC sound). The class 69 was announced during the year but has yet to be released, even the OO version, although that has definitely made progress as samples have been shown.

Dapol introduced an upgraded M7 during the year, and also a class 59. They've made a lot of announcements, but seem to have difficulty getting them out — the class 59 was first announced back in 2012 when Dave Jones was still at the company, as was the Bulleid WC/BB which is still awaited…

Bachmann's commitment to N has often been doubted in the past! Probably unfairly, but not without cause…

[Generic Hornby Username]

4 hours ago, Generic Hornby Username said:

I will say that most of the traditional model railway magazines tend to be friendly with the manufacturers. They’ll critique the products, but they won’t be overtly hostile. I think that’s a fair position to take in the model railway world. Someone reporting on large financial institutions or large food corporations should have a more adversarial approach when it comes to their relationship. In the world of model railways, things are smaller and more intimate. The stakes are also smaller and companies in a more financially precarious position. Hornby, Bachmann, and Dapol are not reaping billions in profits. Some like to criticize “big model trains,” when in truth even the largest player is still a small business. 

No need to be a brute in this industry. 

 

I posted this on another thread, and then I received a beautiful example of being unnecessarily rude. Here was Sam's latest video title:

"Hornby's Horribly Faulty New Black 5"

Some of his frustration is completely valid. I know what it's like to get a model that doesn't work... It stinks! But most modeling magazines would then have reached out the manufacturer, explained the issue, and gotten the problem rectified. Their review would note their initial difficulty, how the manufacturer responded, and then explain the process of repair/replacement. They would warn readers that the event occurred, allowing modelers to be aware of the issue if impacts their model. But ultimately, the reviewer is not trying to sink the product. If the model cannot be fixed in a timely fashion or if there are inherent design flaws, that's when the reviewer will become deeply critical. 

But Sam doesn't do any of that. His title describes Hornby's model as "horribly faulty." Not his particular version of the model, but the model in its entirety. He could have entitled it "the problems with my Hornby Black 5." That would have been accurate. But he didn't. His title suggests an inherent fault exists in the product. That's dishonest. He can't know that. 

The result was obvious... Several posters below the video describing their product cancellations or their relief at not having purchased one. Also, unsurprisingly, several posters were puzzled because their versions of the new Black 5 work perfectly. It's interesting to hear how he rationalizes it:

"Now I know this has been a highly negative review, and I know there will be people out there who will have a go at me and say I'm 'Hornby bashing' again. Well, you know what, sorry but Hornby deserve to be bashed over this. You try spending over 200 pounds for a model and finding so many quality problems, plus performance issues, and then getting down on your knees to Hornby and licking their boots and then thanking them for what they produced. No, I don't think so, somehow. When Hornby produce models that are good, I will give them a good review. And there are plenty of those on this channel. But equally, when Hornby produces dross, I'll criticize them for it. And that's what this video is. And it doesn't matter if there ten critical Hornby reviews in a row, if the models deserve that then that's what I will do. Call me a 'Hornby basher' if you will, and I will accept that title gladly. Because if I am bashing Hornby for this, then that is what they deserve."

It seems he has set up a straw man in his mind. No one is saying to stop negatively reviewing bad models. Being critical where appropriate is essential. Judgements like "for the money, I would suggest going for x model instead" are completely fair. I have no problem with, "I'm not sure the price level on this product is justified" (though, he often does seem to have an unrealistic view of what's "fair"). Critiques on the choice of materials, the item's running quality, and the weight are all totally fine.

But a video that describes a product as "horribly faulty" is not nuanced. It's not constructive. It's not even critical. It's just a lie. Giving a manufacturer space to respond and work out issues is not "licking their boots," it's just being a decent person. 

[ColinB]

4 hours ago, Generic Hornby Username said:

 

I posted this on another thread, and then I received a beautiful example of being unnecessarily rude. Here was Sam's latest video title:

"Hornby's Horribly Faulty New Black 5"

Some of his frustration is completely valid. I know what it's like to get a model that doesn't work... It stinks! But most modeling magazines would then have reached out the manufacturer, explained the issue, and gotten the problem rectified. Their review would note their initial difficulty, how the manufacturer responded, and then explain the process of repair/replacement. They would warn readers that the event occurred, allowing modelers to be aware of the issue if impacts their model. But ultimately, the reviewer is not trying to sink the product. If the model cannot be fixed in a timely fashion or if there are inherent design flaws, that's when the reviewer will become deeply critical. 

But Sam doesn't do any of that. His title describes Hornby's model as "horribly faulty." Not his particular version of the model, but the model in its entirety. He could have entitled it "the problems with my Hornby Black 5." That would have been accurate. But he didn't. His title suggests an inherent fault exists in the product. That's dishonest. He can't know that. 

The result was obvious... Several posters below the video describing their product cancellations or their relief at not having purchased one. Also, unsurprisingly, several posters were puzzled because their versions of the new Black 5 work perfectly. It's interesting to hear how he rationalizes it:

"Now I know this has been a highly negative review, and I know there will be people out there who will have a go at me and say I'm 'Hornby bashing' again. Well, you know what, sorry but Hornby deserve to be bashed over this. You try spending over 200 pounds for a model and finding so many quality problems, plus performance issues, and then getting down on your knees to Hornby and licking their boots and then thanking them for what they produced. No, I don't think so, somehow. When Hornby produce models that are good, I will give them a good review. And there are plenty of those on this channel. But equally, when Hornby produces dross, I'll criticize them for it. And that's what this video is. And it doesn't matter if there ten critical Hornby reviews in a row, if the models deserve that then that's what I will do. Call me a 'Hornby basher' if you will, and I will accept that title gladly. Because if I am bashing Hornby for this, then that is what they deserve."

It seems he has set up a straw man in his mind. No one is saying to stop negatively reviewing bad models. Being critical where appropriate is essential. Judgements like "for the money, I would suggest going for x model instead" are completely fair. I have no problem with, "I'm not sure the price level on this product is justified" (though, he often does seem to have an unrealistic view of what's "fair"). Critiques on the choice of materials, the item's running quality, and the weight are all totally fine.

But a video that describes a product as "horribly faulty" is not nuanced. It's not constructive. It's not even critical. It's just a lie. Giving a manufacturer space to respond and work out issues is not "licking their boots," it's just being a decent person. 

That fault that his model has is a well known one, there is a thread on RMWeb that highlighted it ages ago when they first introduced it. Even Jenny Kirk highlighted that it was an issue, so best not to separate loco from tender. So when he picked it out of the box the two were separate so Hornby definitely shouldn't have packed it like that. PCB edge connectors were pain when I was working in electronics, which is what this is. Yes, it is a pain when you get something that doesn't work and in my case even if it gets sorted (which in this day and age seems to happen less and less) it puts me off buying that product again. As many of you know I used to work in design in the motor industry and the lengths we used to go to for Press release vehicles being perfect were amazing. Then you realise they generally won't give a bad review because they won't get anymore to try out. As one of my bosses once said if you sell someone something duff, you lose that sale plus all their friends and colleagues ones as well. There was a lot wrong with that model, I still have one on order but the lack of a flywheel when other companies provide them is serious, especially when this model was substantially more expensive than its competitors. The hanging PCB again shows a lack of design and possibly an after thought. As he quite rightly said, add your extra features, but not at the expense of the main model design. How do you manage to warp a diecast running board?  

[SMR248]

Perhaps the simple truth is that Hornby have a problem with quality?

[dBerriff]

I too am puzzled by the warped running board.

I think it is time for someone to take a look at the whole procurement and review process. The review process should be open and transparent, including the source for the reviewed product. It should also include the manufacturer's response.

On another point, please stick to a proper tender draw-bar, for the reasons already pointed out.

[ColinB]

36 minutes ago, dBerriff said:

I too am puzzled by the warped running board.

I think it is time for someone to take a look at the whole procurement and review process. The review process should be open and transparent, including the source for the reviewed product. It should also include the manufacturer's response.

On another point, please stick to a proper tender draw-bar, for the reasons already pointed out.

I agree with you. The 4 pin tender connector could be an issue if they didn't crimp the pins properly, but generally it is ok. I think they implemented the new design because Dapol did it and they wanted more than 4 connections. I had to take my one apart on my A4 as I got glue in it (putting real coal in the tender and not noticing that there was a leak) and it didn't look like that drawbar was that robust, two many bits relying on plastic which after a couple of years will snap off.

[SMR248]

29 minutes ago, dBerriff said:

I too am puzzled by the warped running board.

I think it is time for someone to take a look at the whole procurement and review process. The review process should be open and transparent, including the source for the reviewed product. It should also include the manufacturer's response.

On another point, please stick to a proper tender draw-bar, for the reasons already pointed out.

Do the magazines reveal where they get their samples from?  I assume that in most cases they get their samples directly from the manufacturer.  Furthermore, I assume that the manufacturer is normally very careful to check the model before sending it.

I'm more inclined to believe S## than the magazines, who now are extremely reluctant to say anything remotely negative.

In the past, when I bought my (00) locos from my local model shop (sadly no longer there), Bill (the owner) would always test them on his test track so I didn't have the disappointment of getting home and finding that the thing didn't work.

[Hobby11]

2 hours ago, SMR248 said:

Perhaps the simple truth is that Hornby have a problem with quality?

Or a small but vocal minority blow things out of proportion?

[ColinB]

16 minutes ago, Hobby1707822967 said:

Or a small but vocal minority blow things out of proportion?

Hornby have had a problem with quality for years. The small vocal minority notice it more than the rest of us do, I notice it when I buy a broken second hand one and figure that it could never have worked properly. The big issue for Hornby is they have jacked their prices up to be the the Rolls Royce of model railways, so people will check every detail to justify spending that much money. Very few people criticise their Railroad Models because everyone, including Sam appreciates that they are built to a price, although the Beatles and Coca Cola stuff (excluding their very nice trams) probably even stretches that view.

[Hobby11]

You obviously see a different Hornby to me, then! I've seen many faulty models from Heljan, Bachmann and even Kato but they don't attract the same level of criticism. To me it seems people like to make Hornby the whipping boys rather than any real difference in quality. As for Rolls Royce, they just use a well known name, I don't see them saying their products are better.

Edited April 21 by Hobby1707822967

[Generic Hornby Username]

On 18/04/2024 at 10:41, Rallymatt said:

Something YouTubers should be wary of, is crossing the legal line. None of the major UK players in the model railway industry are out to scam anyone and they are not making fortunes by overpricing models; although any manufacturer is free to set whatever price they desire. They know their costs and understand the market better than any content maker. 
At the point ‘personal opinion’ becomes a factual claim things can get very sticky if it’s misleading and/or commercially damaging. Those that have any commercial element attached to any content platform would not get the same considerations in a legal situation as a purely private individual. Bachmann showed they were not amused by ‘locomotion motion’ although they were quite easy on him in reality. A PLC like Hornby has a duty to its shareholders to protect its reputation and goodwill. I wouldn’t be surprised if any of the leading manufacturers didn’t start playing hardball with the ‘wobble gobs’ of YouTube land and I know who would win. Sometimes it’s good to have a cull. 😁

You know, I wasn't sure if I agreed with you on this, RM. But after this performance... You could make a strong case that Sam has now crossed the line. Describing an entire product as "horribly faulty" without any evidence beyond a single model, would seem to begin meeting criteria for defamation (at least in the US where I'm from, I assume it should be similar in the UK). He has a platform sufficient to cause Hornby material damage. There's even evidence below his video of people describing their product cancellations. This was not a case of fair criticism. 

I'm totally fine with criticisms of quality control, lack of flywheels, issues with matching the prototype, etc. But when a major platform makes a demonstrably untrue claim that harms your business... What other remedy do you have? 

[moawkwrd]

59 minutes ago, ColinB said:

Hornby have had a problem with quality for years. The small vocal minority notice it more than the rest of us do, I notice it when I buy a broken second hand one and figure that it could never have worked properly. The big issue for Hornby is they have jacked their prices up to be the the Rolls Royce of model railways, so people will check every detail to justify spending that much money. Very few people criticise their Railroad Models because everyone, including Sam appreciates that they are built to a price, although the Beatles and Coca Cola stuff (excluding their very nice trams) probably even stretches that view.

This is all fair cop but at the end of the day a phone call or email to Hornby customer services would have likely resulted in him getting a brand new model without any faults, which is what most customers would’ve done. Hornby get praised all the time for their excellent customer service and how they resolve issues.

He didn’t even give them the chance.

[Rallymatt]

My comment regarding care what social media commenters make, wasn’t even based on a specific instance at the time but a general observation, a few have been getting very close to the line.@Generic Hornby Username this latest development has clear evidence of commercial consequences. Sam’s Trains would be viewed as a Business like anyone who runs any social media channel that has the ‘potential for reward’ (income, sponsorship, commissions etc) by the courts in UK. Causing financial hardship (loss of sales) through false or misleading statements is a very serious matter and it’s not all about the value of those lost sales (until you come to damages claim) It would be inexpensive for a manufacturer to begin proceedings, they wouldn’t even need a lawyer, but the effect on someone like Sam of Sams Trains could be devastating and long lasting. There is an inherent flaw in believing your own self importance and Social Media is not exempt from the law. 

[Rallymatt]

@ColinB I think Hornby are a long way from the ‘Rolls Royce’ pricing, may I invite you to Märklin, Roco, etc…. even the Continental brands of Hornby. UK modellers actually get a very good deal.