More ill-informed TT120 criticism from young Samuel

[Postman On The Rails]

12 minutes ago, Rallymatt said:

My comment regarding care what social media commenters make, wasn’t even based on a specific instance at the time but a general observation, a few have been getting very close to the line.@Generic Hornby Username this latest development has clear evidence of commercial consequences. Sam’s Trains would be viewed as a Business like anyone who runs any social media channel that has the ‘potential for reward’ (income, sponsorship, commissions etc) by the courts in UK. Causing financial hardship (loss of sales) through false or misleading statements is a very serious matter and it’s not all about the value of those lost sales (until you come to damages claim) It would be inexpensive for a manufacturer to begin proceedings, they wouldn’t even need a lawyer, but the effect on someone like Sam of Sams Trains could be devastating and long lasting. There is an inherent flaw in believing your own self importance and Social Media is not exempt from the law. 

That’s the trouble with all social media it seems to be common place to have misleading headlines, I saw one the other day about airlines updating times to get to the airport, had a read and it hadn’t changed its been the same since 2016 but it’s just to get you to read articles etc and tbh gets right on my wick.

[Generic Hornby Username]

21 minutes ago, Rallymatt said:

@ColinB I think Hornby are a long way from the ‘Rolls Royce’ pricing, may I invite you to Märklin, Roco, etc…. even the Continental brands of Hornby. UK modellers actually get a very good deal. 

This is so true. Exhibit A, I present to you Marklin's 1 Scale Big Boy locomotive. It comes in with a 999 Euro RRP... For the display case. To get the locomotive with that, you will need to spend at least another 6000-7000 Euros. 

But perhaps a more fair comparison is between two Class 66 models. Hornby TT:120 has their sound-fitted Class 66s pegged at 203.45 Euros RRP. By contrast, Marklin has their HO Class 66 variant selling at 488.99 Euros RRP. Modell Bahn Union has them on sale for 388 Euros. Pretty expensive! 

https://www.modellbahnunion.com/HO-gauge/diesel-loco-Class-66-HGK-mfx-Sound.htm?shop=modellbahn-union-en&a=article&ProdNr=Trix-T22691&p=802

I will note that Marklin has managed to retain a significant amount manufacturing inside of Germany and the EU. That's laudable, in my opinion. But there's a price associated with that. They are the Rolls Royce of the model railway world. I think Lionel would be the US equivalent. Those are some pretty pricey models. 

Edited April 21 by Generic Hornby Username

[Rallymatt]

I used to think Roco was up there until I bought one… it’s certainly not up to Hornby quality of model or customer care… £300 of scrap

[ColinB]

44 minutes ago, Rallymatt said:

@ColinB I think Hornby are a long way from the ‘Rolls Royce’ pricing, may I invite you to Märklin, Roco, etc…. even the Continental brands of Hornby. UK modellers actually get a very good deal. 

In the UK they are considerably more expensive than Accurascale. Cavalex and Dapol. If you then add the extra features you get from Cavalex and Accurascale, things like fully fitted "stay alive" and working metal pantographs, it makes the comparison even worse, but you are entitled to your opinion. I think the engineering on a Roco or Marklin is in a different league, so I expect them to be expensive.  

[ColinB]

30 minutes ago, Generic Hornby Username said:

This is so true. Exhibit A, I present to you Marklin's 1 Scale Big Boy locomotive. It comes in with a 999 Euro RRP... For the display case. To get the locomotive with that, you will need to spend at least another 6000-7000 Euros. 

But perhaps a more fair comparison is between two Class 66 models. Hornby TT:120 has their sound-fitted Class 66s pegged at 203.45 Euros RRP. By contrast, Marklin has their HO Class 66 variant selling at 488.99 Euros RRP. Modell Bahn Union has them on sale for 388 Euros. Pretty expensive! 

https://www.modellbahnunion.com/HO-gauge/diesel-loco-Class-66-HGK-mfx-Sound.htm?shop=modellbahn-union-en&a=article&ProdNr=Trix-T22691&p=802

I will note that Marklin has managed to retain a significant amount manufacturing inside of Germany and the EU. That's laudable, in my opinion. But there's a price associated with that. They are the Rolls Royce of the model railway world. I think Lionel would be the US equivalent. Those are some pretty pricey models. 

Actually that is not much different to the price of a Bachmann class 66 with sound, the Hornby is Railroad so you can't count that, but some of their super detailed diesels if you add decent sound would be getting very close to that figure. My favorite is the class 87, do your figures on that one, limited lighting, plastic pantograph.

[moawkwrd]

3 minutes ago, ColinB said:

Actually that is not much different to the price of a Bachmann class 66 with sound, the Hornby is Railroad so you can't count that, but some of their super detailed diesels if you add decent sound would be getting very close to that figure. My favorite is the class 87, do your figures on that one, limited lighting, plastic pantograph.

The Hornby TT:120 Class 66 is not Railroad? 

[ntpntpntp]

28 minutes ago, Rallymatt said:

I used to think Roco was up there until I bought one… it’s certainly not up to Hornby quality of model or customer care… £300 of scrap

Ah but this is your experience with a specific example of a model - much like Sam's experience with his Black 5.   Can't really tar the entire product range with the same brush, it's a shame you've been put off. 
I've many Roco N models going back to the 70s. Older loco chassis designs were lesser quality engineering than contemporary Fleischmann and Minitrix but still perfectly usable, and by the 90s their mechanisms were as good as anyone elses.  Some of the Roco HOe locos my son has are beautifully made and smooth running models. 
I cannot speak for their customer service as I've never needed to contact them.

[Rallymatt]

I am not completely blown away with the level of detailing on many Märklin and Roco models, it’s not any better than Hornby etc. Märklin mechanicals are usually excellent although my experience of Roco has been less than enjoyable. 
The price differentials between Cavalex,  Accurascale etc are not that much compared to Bachmann and Hornby who both support huge ranges and deliver big volumes. Development and stock holding etc is a big expense that the smaller players just don’t have. It’s a lot easier to cherry pick a few things and work on thin margins. The hobby would be a very different place if it was all down to the small players. 

Edited April 21 by Rallymatt
Spalling

[ColinB]

2 minutes ago, moawkwrd said:

The Hornby TT:120 Class 66 is not Railroad? 

So you are comparing a TT:120 with an HO, that is not really a fair comparison. TT is meant to be marketed as a a cheap alternative to OO, well at least that was Simon's original idea. I was comparing the Hornby OO range as that is closest to OO.

[ntpntpntp]

6 minutes ago, moawkwrd said:

The Hornby TT:120 Class 66 is not Railroad? 

Hardly.   The Railroad 66 is probably ex Lima tooling, still with a single power bogie.  The TT:120 66 will be in a different league.

[Rallymatt]

1 minute ago, ColinB said:

So you are comparing a TT:120 with an HO, that is not really a fair comparison. TT is meant to be marketed as a a cheap alternative to OO, well at least that was Simon's original idea. I was comparing the Hornby OO range as that is closest to OO.

TT was never ever meant to be a cheap alternative to OO. Simon K was very clear about that many times. It’s a true scale smaller offering. Most TT:120 locos and stock are similar prices to OO/HO. Colin, with your background you of all people should know making things smaller usually makes them more expensive. 

[ColinB]

2 minutes ago, Rallymatt said:

I am not completely blown away with the leve of detailing on many Märklina and Roco models, it’s not any better than Hornby etc. Märklin mechanicals are usually excellent although my experience Roco has been less than enjoyable. 
The price differentials between Cavalex,  Accurascale etc are not that much compared to Bachmann and Hornby who both support huge ranges and deliver big volumes. Development and stock holding etc is a big expense that the smaller players just don’t have. It’s a lot easier to cherry pick a few things and work on thin margins. The hobby would be a very different place if it was all down to the small players. 

I worked for a small company once, it is a constant headache, because you are small there are not the volumes for purchasing components. So yes they can be lean and mean but they have a lot different issues, finance etc.

[ColinB]

1 minute ago, Rallymatt said:

TT was never ever meant to be a cheap alternative to OO. Simon K was very clear about that many times. It’s a true scale smaller offering. Most TT:120 locos and stock are similar prices to OO/HO. Colin, with your background you of all people should know making things smaller usually makes them more expensive. 

Not necessarily it all depends what it is, most of it is made by machine so materials has a bit input.

[Rallymatt]

Certainly if you are manufacturing yourself size can affect component costs but as any MD/CEO knows your biggest expenses are never base components. No 1 is staff, facilities, stock holding even accounting. An SME like Accurascale can have its accounts drawn up for £2k ish, a PLC and you are talking 10’s of £k. The advantage of outsourcing the manufacturing to China like minnows do they don’t have to worry about component price, just the FOB price or possibly even the Landed price. The factory is buying these components every month and it’s the volumes the bigger players create that enable the smaller manufacturers to get the best prices. That’s been a key reason why even small companies went East. 

[ColinB]

Either way it doesn't matter, most people just want value for money and couldn't care about the rest. To be fair, if they didn't we would be paying ridiculous prices for everyday things. I have a few items preordered with Hornby that I will honour, especially as they are at old prices. I tend to buy most of my locos prefitted with DCC sound, so that dismisses most of Hornby anyway. I just got fed trying to find the space and watching bits drop off, trying to fit DCC. 

Edited April 23 by RB51
Unnecessary quote - removed.

[Rallymatt]

1 hour ago, ntpntpntp said:

Ah but this is your experience with a specific example of a model - much like Sam's experience with his Black 5.   Can't really tar the entire product range with the same brush, it's a shame you've been put off.  
I cannot speak for their customer service as I've never needed to contact them.

A well made point Nick and why I restricted my comments to my singular experience although seems there are lot of very unhappy Germans  with this one too. 

[HST Mainline]

I think it is safe to say that all manufacturers struggle with getting models to the right price and quality. Also remember, that quality is not only "more detail". There is a tendency to consider "more detail = better quality". I think this is a misconception.

I see quality as a much broader subject, meaning everything from boxes to quality of assembly and running conditions. Personally, I think the Hornby Railroad range is good quality, when the concept of the range is taken into consideration.

I have a lot of German H0 models, and Märklin, Trix or Roco is not always good quality, simply because they sometimes seem to cut corners on the internal mechanisms. The model may look good but performs poorly.

The later models from Märklin/Trix (about 2 - 3 years back and until now) have been better quality overall, but the prices have also gone up significantly.

[Mulsanne88]

Well who’d have thought it, something that we have been raving about finally gets the Sam nod of approval 

He fitted an 8pin 7000 sound decoder and stay alive into a random 040 cheap loco and loved the result.

Okay he moaned about the lack of profile choices but what is a Sam review without a moan or two

Maybe he is slowly coming on board with hm7000 and even tt as a option

[SteveM6]

Carpet Boy is detached from reality. He starts off by moaning about the lack of detail/authenticity in a toy that cost him only £31. Then fits a £70+ decoder and stayalives to said toy.

I noticed that he didn't show 'how' he achieved it, only posting a glimpse of the 'here's one I prepared earlier'. An almost total lack of insulation and the stayalive hung under the chassis.

And on top of that he bemoans the lack of a suitable sound profile and declares the number of profiles available as poor.

 But then he and his acolytes seem to enjoy Hornby bashing at every opportunity, regardless of reality.

Now, how do I stop the YouTube algorithm pushing his videos.😉

[ColinB]

I watched that video and your analysis was totally unfair. To those of use that convert locos to DCC it was pretty obvious what he did, red and black to track, orange and grey to motor. Easy when you know how. As to insulation he doesn't need to, other than the bit that touches the motor, the body is plastic. In fact with insulation you have to extremely careful because of heat dissipation. As to slinging the "stay alive" under the chassis what is the issue it is insulated and he used the LaisDCC so it fits. On the subject of insulation how do you know what he had done it was all wrapped up. I must admit I would have done it much neater but he was just trying it out, to prove that it could be done. As to the loco I thought he was quite positive about it, it is what it is. I have done the same with two of my old locos, admittedly with Zimo non sound decoders and LaisDCC. It converts a rubbish loco into something quite useful. So please stop being so negative, you obviously don't like him but leave you responses to facts. At the end of the day if it encourages someone with little money to invest in a cheap loco, so where is the harm, Hornby is never going to sell those locos to true modellers. As to profile, or course Hornby aren't going to provide a profile, they don't even add a DCC socket in these locos. His attitude is the 0-4-0 is a current Hornby product so why no profile, simple logical question. They probably make more profit on these locos than the more detailed ones, so they need to sell more.

Edited April 23 by RB51
Unnecessary quote - removed.

[ColinB]

Anyway what is this doing under TT120? Sam was testing an OO loco with a HM7000 decoder, it either should be under General, HM7000 or DCC. It has nothing to do with TT120.

Mod Edit: TT120 is where the thread started.

Edited April 23 by RB51
Unnecessary quote - removed.

[Generic Hornby Username]

7 hours ago, SteveM6 said:

Carpet Boy is detached from reality. He starts off by moaning about the lack of detail/authenticity in a toy that cost him only £31. Then fits a £70+ decoder and stayalives to said toy.

I noticed that he didn't show 'how' he achieved it, only posting a glimpse of the 'here's one I prepared earlier'. An almost total lack of insulation and the stayalive hung under the chassis.

And on top of that he bemoans the lack of a suitable sound profile and declares the number of profiles available as poor.

 But then he and his acolytes seem to enjoy Hornby bashing at every opportunity, regardless of reality.

Now, how do I stop the YouTube algorithm pushing his videos.😉

I can tell you’re joking, but if anyone would like, you can actually tell YouTube not to suggest a channel. Hit the three little dots next to the name of the video. A menu should open with the following selections: “Not interested,” “Don’t Recommend Channel,” and “Save for Later.” Don’t recommend channel is effective if you are completely uninterested in a certain YouTuber’s content. If it’s just that one video you don’t want to see, you can hit the “Not Interested” button. All those selections will train the video recommendations you receive. I’d be crazy without those features! 

[ColinB]

I am sure they watch them so they can criticise. I am not even sure they watch them to the end, just the headlines. I thought it was quite a good video, how to make a rubbish loco work a lot better. He should have bought some cab detail off Peter Spares to make it look a bit better. The irony of it is, I only realised what good "stay alive" can do, when I bought a Powerpack for a loco with HM7000 in it, the previous iterations I had tried from some manufacturers were rubbish.

Edited April 24 by RB51
Unnecessary quote - removed

[ColinB]

9 hours ago, Mulsanne88 said:

Well who’d have thought it, something that we have been raving about finally gets the Sam nod of approval 

He fitted an 8pin 7000 sound decoder and stay alive into a random 040 cheap loco and loved the result.

Okay he moaned about the lack of profile choices but what is a Sam review without a moan or two

Maybe he is slowly coming on board with hm7000 and even tt as a option

You obviously didn't see his top ten products from Hornby, HM7000 was quite high.

[GMD]

3 hours ago, ColinB said:

thought it was quite a good video, how to make a rubbish loco work a lot better

I agree Colin. I found it one of the most interesting in a while, and worthwhile test. I also rather regret starting this thread! But as with so many things hindsight is 20/20! Sam has huge potential for good in the hobby, and often his stuff actually very valid, just somewhat frustrating when things get out of proportion, which often seems directed at Hornby!

Mods, if you think this thread has run its course and would be better locked, that’s fine by me.