More ill-informed TT120 criticism from young Samuel

[GMD]

It’s almost not worth posting - but if it saves some of you bothering to watch it, then here goes.

Latest issue of Sam’s Trains is the April News edition. 

In it he covers the TT120 April range launch. This is criticised as being poor, not enough announced etc. Also the upcoming HST sets are noted, and he gets quite annoyed because they are such good value, and he feels ripped off having bought the HST train pack.

He also covers the newly announced NG7 range from Bachmann. Which is tiny compared to what Hornby have announced. ANd yet not one word of criticism. In the comments too, every single negative comment re TT, Sam has replied to and in the comments section some of his language is even less guarded. 

It’s getting really frustrating. I used to enjoy watching Sam, and used to defend him against some of the over-the-top criticism from those who were just out to be nasty. But this is getting very frustrating. In one of the comments he criticises Hornby for not investing enough in TT…!

Anyway - I had to get it off my chest! Rant over. 

[NSE456]

With regards to the HST set I wouldn't have been surprised seeing these products in 00 range with the pack containing a Railroad HST rather than the premium one which is sold without coaches.

That said since TT models are new I would guess they are the same or very similar models. I don't know if there are any changes to the set model to help it meet the price point but if it is the same, I would probably be fustrated had I splashed out on the original pack.

That said the pack is exactly what I want to see more of from Hornby as it does appear to offer a better value option. I would like to see them introduce this into 00 gauge sets like the Class 91s and the HSTs there.

 

Regarding Hornbys TT range I happen to agree the range needs to be a lot larger for it to have any level of interest for me, theres just not enough variety in my opinion. I suppose Rome wasn't built in a day though.

[Dave the Busker]

Thanks for reminding me why I told the YouTube algorithm not to push his videos at me 😂

[Generic Hornby Username]

I was worried this would happen. He missed the big picture.

Newly tooled locomotives scheduled for 2024:

1) Class 43 -delivered 

2) Duchesses 

3) Class 50

4) Class 66

5) J50

 

Newly tooled coaches for 2024:

1) Mk 3 coaches- delivered

2) LMS coaches- in process

3) Mk 2f coaches 

 

New tooled wagons for 2024:

1) HAA wagons

2) TTA -delivered

3) 21 Ton Mineral Wagon

Newly tooled rail side accessories for 2024:

1) Signals (4 variants)

2) Level crossing 

 

And with new buildings and other accessories arriving too. 2024 was always going to be a huge year for TT:120. Hornby didn’t need to announce something new, because they already have announced a huge range. This is not a weak year. This is an enormous investment.

 

In addition, we can expect (at least!) the following new tooling projects in 2025:

1) Class 37

2) Mk 2e coaches

3) KFA container wagons

 

And that’s just what we know about. I suspect that the number of 2024 new tooling projects compare favorably to many OO and N company’s releases in 2023. How many newly tooled locomotives did Graham Farish and Dapol launch last year in N? It can’t be too far off these numbers. I almost want to count. 
 

The April event did three things:

1) Remedied the lack of a small locomotive 

2) Remedied the lack of diesel-era starter sets

3) Remedied the lack of wagons for the Class 66 to pull

 

Those were common anti-TT complaints. Now they’re gone. April did what it was supposed to do. Adjusted the range to meet common complaints and requests, while keeping the core intact. 
 

But it’s easier to whine.

[Rallymatt]

Sams Trains, Charlie Bishop etc are narcissistic grifters trying to earn off the backs of others. Certainly in case of Samuel, look at his modelling offering, is that what you genuinely aspire to? 
Like @Dave the Busker and others I asked You Tube not to suggest content from the grifters 

[Generic Hornby Username]

I’m not going to pretend this is a perfect list. If there are any N Scale fans that notice an omission, please let me know! 
 

The following list are newly-tooled Graham Farish/EFE N Scale models that were released in 2023. These are the announcements I found going through the Bachmann blog and by cross-referencing the Hatton’s directory. Here’s the list: 

1. HRA Bogie Wagon 
2. Class 14 (tooling upgrade on 2010 model) 
3. Class 47 (tooling upgrade on 2008 model)
4. MXA “Lobster” Bogie Wagon
5. PBA Tiger Wagons
6. Class 450 
7. Class 158
8. Class 69
9. Austerity Tank Engine

 

You’ll notice the big headliners here are the Austerity Tank, Class 450, Class 69, and Class 158. They were the significant newly-tooled locomotives of the year. Minor tooling modifications were done on the Class 47 (from 2021) to provide a new variant. The Class 14 was also upgraded to fit DCC decoders. But the core of the locomotive is older (2010). 
 

In addition, I counted three newly-tooled freight wagons in the Graham Farish and EFE ranges for 2023. 
 

So, for 2023, they had 4 newly-tooled locomotives and 3 newly-tooled wagons. They also upgraded 2 locomotives. Hornby TT:120’s 2024 range will easily surpass these numbers (5 locomotives, 3 coaches, 3 freight wagons). 

In terms of investment, Hornby is more committed to TT:120 in 2024 than Bachmann was to British N Scale in 2023. So far, I count 3 new toolings in N Scale from Bachmann in 2024 (1 locomotive and 2 wagon types). More are likely to be announced, but I doubt Bachmann N Scale will outpace Hornby’s TT:120 release schedule in 2024. 
 

This should end worries about Hornby’s commitment to the scale. Or maybe Bachmann is not committed to N Scale… 🤔😉🤣

[Skelton Junction]

3 hours ago, Rallymatt said:

Sams Trains, Charlie Bishop etc are narcissistic grifters trying to earn off the backs of others. Certainly in case of Samuel, look at his modelling offering, is that what you genuinely aspire to? 
Like @Dave the Busker and others I asked You Tube not to suggest content from the grifters 

Unfortunately, there’s an audience for narcissistic grifters to play to with a willingly complicit media. Witness yesterday’s BBC news website which featured four different articles about Trump and none about the sitting US President. The YT opinionaters you mention have discovered that Hornby TT120 provides oxygen for their tiny little worlds. 

[happy tt]

sam sam sam what should i say i liked his revlew of the bachmann b1 .

he even said the hornby  b1 one was better shock horror ,so i just watched the april  release one it was a shock.

why  go on  about the price of TT120 if lts small it is harder to work on it takes more time =more cost labour .

shipping on ships or get santa to do on is 364 days of far cheaper hornby could save money .

i agree with peachy in hjs post on youtube and every one  here .

I know that if i down size i can take my layout with me so the scale is great for me i would never belittle someones model railway whatever size it is or scale i was hopping mad at the comments hornby and TT 120🤐 received  roll no the end of year statement we might just see how well TT120 is doing   and some company might join in the fun      a j26 or p2 j27  in TT 120 would be a nice  mid size loco 😀

[Too Tall]

I haven't watched it, but pricing for the TT range is pretty good in comparison to what the Hornby 00 range is, perhaps this is why some 00 are getting upset ? TBH my early (and maybe incorrect) impressions are Hornby isn't really competitive in OO, on price or often features at this time.

My next (second)  layout will be OO, so I actually have found myself watching a few of his review videos as they are quite methodical and often useful to someone new to the field wondering what some of the makers stuff is like.

Even then, I do notice some ill informed comments creeping in, Obviously his waffle is all taken with a large pinch of salt. He can have his uses, but I fail to see why some of these guys are getting so irate about a scale they are not invested in , and don't actually do their homework.

Edited April 18 by Too Tall

[moawkwrd]

Anytime someone complains about TT pricing, they reference how they bought a 20 year old OO model second hand for 2/3s the price 5 years ago or similar. It’s completely disingenuous.

[Mulsanne88]

Back in 2022 I took a leap of faith and invested (financially and emotionally) in this new scale

Yes choice was limited back then but now there is a decent offering from Hornby, Peco are joining the party and many artisan small volume manufacturers are providing varied accessories 

Can I create a world in TT ? Absolutely yes I can and that world is expanding rapidly 

Sorry Sam get a grip, tt is here to stay and it’s fantastic, jealousy is quite ugly

[Irishmail]

Saw one of his videos once, that was enough !! 

The more people make comments on topics/forums like this, (Not just here but all over the social media network) is this not helping to give them more publicity?

As mentioned earlier, there are youtubers who are just in it for the money/publicity or claim to fame or whatever,  however there are some very good ones from genuine modellers who are willing to share their knowledge.  

[dBerriff]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/dunning-kruger-effect

[Silver Fox 17]

39 minutes ago, Irishmail said:

As mentioned earlier, there are youtubers who are just in it for the money/publicity or claim to fame or whatever,  however there are some very good ones from genuine modellers who are willing to share their knowledge.  

That is why I do not look at any YouTube once I see "paid content" appear, no matter who. 

  

[Generic Hornby Username]

38 minutes ago, dBerriff said:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/dunning-kruger-effect

I saw an example of that. Someone was lambasting Hornby for charging 15 pounds more for their TT Class 66 than the Accurascale Class 66 in OO. Pretty bad, right?

Only, they were comparing the DCC sound-fitted TT locomotive (without retailer discount) to the DC Accurascale Class 66. Here are the prices of the TT vs. OO Class 66s at TMC:

Accurascale Class 66 DC: 169.99 GBP

Accurascale Class 66 DCC Sound: 259.99 GBP

Hornby TT Class 66 DC: 116.99 GBP

Hornby TT Class 66 DCC Sound: 166.49 GBP

 

Whenever I look at the Class 66, I almost breakdown and preorder one. They are probably going to be the best-value locomotives money can buy in the range. And they're cheaper than Accurascale's OO version... 🤣

Edited April 18 by Generic Hornby Username

[GMD]

I still don't actually understand the pricing in fairness - why is the 66 so much cheaper than even the 50 or the 08? Can anyone explain this to me? It seems to offer the same or better features for the money. 

[Generic Hornby Username]

My theory on the Class 66 pricing has always been Hornby's expectation of high sales volume making up for the lower price. While the Class 50 has a devoted following and great modeling potential, the Class 66 is on another level. The Class 66 is the face of British rail freight today. It's the indispensable locomotive, needed to model any serious modern layout. Whereas the Class 50 saw limited use in parts of the country, the Class 66 is everywhere. A person modeling any region can happily purchase a Class 66. And the Class 66 is run by a large range of operators. And where there are operators, there are liveries! Hornby can release livery after livery without scratching the surface of the livery potential. And buyers can buy Class 66 after Class 66 without ever buying the same one twice. And then the Class 66 has one more ace up its sleeve. It can be sold in Europe. We know that many Continental TT buyers are eagerly awaiting the Class 66's arrival. 

All these sales let Hornby pay off the tooling cost more rapidly. It also divides the cost out over many more locomotives. And that lets them reduce the price. In a way, Hornby is benefiting from the same forces that made the Class 66 so ubiquitous. One locomotive purchased by many customers results in more efficient manufacturing and happy customers. 

There's a reason there are 4 newly-tooled Class 66s set for release in 2024! 

Edited April 18 by Generic Hornby Username

[Rallymatt]

To confirm the bias people will often compare different products, either by accident (because they are not that bright) or on purpose because they want the less bright people to not notice and follow them. It’s hard to give an example with mentioning Trump, apologies but he is a bigly example of this. 
Size matters; another bizarre misdirection, how many situations do you find where a ‘tech item’ is less expensive because it is smaller (assuming same functionality and detail) we can consider a model railway loco to be a ‘tech item’. 
Class 66 price; I’m not so up on this class but I don’t think the full size one has had many changes to its outward appearance since introduction. This would greatly reduce design and tooling costs and its pan European appeal would probably mean much larger production runs helping to amortise costs more rapidly. Class 66 and modern wagons have ‘modern diesel freight set’ written all over it! 

[Bulleidboy]

My layout is a 1950's/1960's steam layout, but just occasionally up to three Class 66's with sound can be seen operating. The Class 66 Evening Star with Hornby HM7000 sound is absolutely superb. Sorry we are getting off track - Sam tends to blow hot and cold, I don't subscribe to his channel, but will look in now and again, the same with Charlie Bishop.

[taunmarc88]

I do wish Sam would ask people who Model in TT their opinion. If they released a new loco every month we’d all be bankrupt !

[ColinB]

I watched that Sam's video, quite tame with what he used to post, but then I get the feeling he is worried that Hornby may shut his channel down. As far as I was concerned nothing he said was vastly wrong, a lot of the prices he was quoting did seem inflated compared with the original prices. The price of TT items has been slowly creeping up. The HST gripe was exactly what most people would think, in OO scale you thing "well that is because they have cost reduced the model" but with TT that doesn't seem to be the case.  Fortunately he hasn't done a review of Hornby's latest 8F offering in OO scale a 20 year old model with less features, that costs considerably more than the retooled Black 5. If I remember rightly he generally bases his prices on the old price plus the necessary inflation in the necessary years to work out if a product is "overpriced". In OO scale it is quite easy to do a comparison, compare a Hornby model costs with a Accurascale, Cavalex or Dapol one, but that probably explains why I have been picking up a lot of Hornby releases at bargain basement prices.

[Rod-360333]

To quote Oscar Wilde "There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about"

Oscar Wilde

[Rallymatt]

Something YouTubers should be wary of, is crossing the legal line. None of the major UK players in the model railway industry are out to scam anyone and they are not making fortunes by overpricing models; although any manufacturer is free to set whatever price they desire. They know their costs and understand the market better than any content maker. 
At the point ‘personal opinion’ becomes a factual claim things can get very sticky if it’s misleading and/or commercially damaging. Those that have any commercial element attached to any content platform would not get the same considerations in a legal situation as a purely private individual. Bachmann showed they were not amused by ‘locomotion motion’ although they were quite easy on him in reality. A PLC like Hornby has a duty to its shareholders to protect its reputation and goodwill. I wouldn’t be surprised if any of the leading manufacturers didn’t start playing hardball with the ‘wobble gobs’ of YouTube land and I know who would win. Sometimes it’s good to have a cull. 😁

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, Rallymatt said:

Something YouTubers should be wary of, is crossing the legal line. None of the major UK players in the model railway industry are out to scam anyone and they are not making fortunes by overpricing models; although any manufacturer is free to set whatever price they desire. They know their costs and understand the market better than any content maker. 
At the point ‘personal opinion’ becomes a factual claim things can get very sticky if it’s misleading and/or commercially damaging. Those that have any commercial element attached to any content platform would not get the same considerations in a legal situation as a purely private individual. Bachmann showed they were not amused by ‘locomotion motion’ although they were quite easy on him in reality. A PLC like Hornby has a duty to its shareholders to protect its reputation and goodwill. I wouldn’t be surprised if any of the leading manufacturers didn’t start playing hardball with the ‘wobble gobs’ of YouTube land and I know who would win. Sometimes it’s good to have a cull. 😁

I doubt they will, they wouldn't want the negative publicity. Sam also sells a lot of Hornby models when he does a good review, which he does. Nobody on this site mentions his top ten of Hornby decent locos, he is right because I have most of them. I am sure I am not the only person that goes out and buys an obscure Hornby model because he did a decent review of it. It is not his fault he got sold a duff Evening Star, mine is perfect, but then that comes down to what we all moan about, Hornby Quality Assurance. The thing that was interesting was the old Railroad model was listed in his Hornby decent locos top ten. I have this model I bought it years ago and yes he is right it is a decent model. On mine a pain to fit DCC as it is in the loco but comparing the two when I run them, unless you knew which was the newer, you can hardly tell the difference.

[dBerriff]

It is not the influencers who annoy me (click unsubscribe...) but the acolytes who go forth and infiltrate other discussions, regardless of the context or intent. You get the same homilies repeated ad-nauseam without any evidence or understanding.