front bogies derailing on modern locos

[ColinB]

Looking at the setup Hornby have for testing their locos on their program on the Yesterday channel, I can begin to understand why the newer models negotiate points better. Than is some evil test track, perhaps they didn't have that setup before. Looking at their staff, they all seem relatively young, so perhaps more open to change.

[threelink]

There's an irony - fabulously detailed and accurate models having to be doctored up and have bits replaced by older parts in order to make them work!

[Potterton]

@threelink "There's an irony - fabulously detailed and accurate models having to be doctored up and have bits replaced by older parts in order to make them work!"

I agree. I've always said I'd rather have a model which looks the part even if not "fully detailed," but is reliable and runs well rather than one which is spot-on perfect, (as far as is possible), but is a poor or unreliable runner

[ColinB]

I must admit I quite often think that way, when several of the separately fitted parts fall off in the box. I have got to admit the latest Hornby Duchess performs much better than my earlier ones, the latest Hornby Dublo one is a Rolls Royce. As to the older bogies working better, not so sure. I run DCC so I converted a couple of my tender driven locos to DCC, they still derailed. Replaced the chassis with a motor in loco one and in the case of the Duchess put on the latest Princess Elizabeth front bogie modified to fit. Works perfectly. The really expensive new ones I don't really want to touch, but I have to pull the tender apart to fit DCC which usually means some separately fitted part falling off.

[508006]

Hi Everyone

This is my 2nd post on this forum.

In response to the question by Matt123x, I have a few loco driven steam models that had the same problem.

My solution if anybody is interested was to remove the front bogie / pony wheels due to their very fine flanges and replace them with wheels from the older 1908s / 90s locos.

These wheels do have slightly deeper flanges and granted they will look a bit odd on the loco, however, in my experience replacing the fine flanged wheels with the older wheels has helped a lot and as a result the locos now don't derail when running except for when I forget to change a turnout or point whichever term you prefer to use.

Also regarding the question about Bachmann steam locos, I have found that they are vulnerable to derailing as their front ( and rear bogies in the case of tank locos ) are made of plastic and although they do have a piece of sprung metal that pushes the front pony / bogie down ( not sure if tank locos have springing on the rear pony / bogie ) but thdy do derail quite a lot.

My 1st Bachmann locomotive was the Peppercorn A1 number 60161 North British which was 1 of those with a duff motor when I bought it back in 2005 although now painted green and numbered as 60153 Flamboyant she now has a cd powered tender driven A3/4 chassis and she had a plastic front bogie until I replaced it with a metal front bogie from a Hornby Gresley A1/3 but it does require removing the swivel arm that attaches the front bogie to a 1980s / 90s locomotive.

Because the Bachmann Peppercorn A1 has a slot in the keeper plate which also removes the front bogie I use a bolt and a few washers over the guide slot for stearing the bogie with a nut on the other end but this requires either a dab of glue if the bogie is never going to be removed again or as I did on my loco use blutac as this way you can still remove the front bogie if necessary but it does take a bit of trial and error to get the bogie to the right height but it is well worth it.

I am not sure if there is a way to convert tank locos that have a plastic pony / bogie but if there is I recommend giving it a go as the locos will run better and should minimise the number of derailments and really the only thing worth keeping from Bachmann loco bogies and pony's is the wheels and axles.

Hope this helps.

[threelink]

Oh Crikey - double irony.

508006 replaces finer wheels on more recent models with coarser to prevent derailments and I replace coarser on old models with finer to improve their appearance!

I have never had a problem with bogies or pony trucks even on my manky track (some code 100, some code 75, all secondhand) that could not be solved by adding a small spring or a small lump of lead to bogie or truck. Sometimes a small block of sponge rubber suffices as a spring. The main thing is to get the bogie or truck properly set up, as 508006 clearly does. A little care and time in this reaps dividends in terms of good riding

[ColinB]

If you look at a lot of the retooled Hornby locos putting the spring in, is exactly what they have done. My track is not entirely level so it is a must. On Peters Spares site it actually mentions that the spring is needed on the latest A1 chassis.

[ANDREW-1247915]

Perhaps a light spring could fix this.

[morairamike]

On my A4s the bogie would derail randomly. I checked the back to backs and there was already a leaf spring fitted. The locos ran continuously with the front bogie removed. Then I put it back on and noted that the front driver was being lifted clear of the track by the spring pressure exerted by the bogie. The bend on the leaf spring was altered to stop this happening and no more derailments.

[RDS]

@ANDREW

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[rpjallan]

I thought I had posted an answer to this, but I cannot find it, so my apologies if you have read the post before. On my P2 I added an extra sliver of phosphor bronze to the front bogie by gluing it on, this seemed to fix the issue.

I know this topic was started quite a while ago. I hope ColinB is still around. I have a P2 but up until the other night it had only been run in on my rolling road. I had it running on a friends large layout going quite fast pulling 10 coaches, no problem. When it was running through the fiddle yard over multiple points you could see the front bogie bouncing about. It only actually derailed once. Anyway, if you could elaborate a bit of how you fixed it by glueing a bit of phosphor bronze on, that would be much appreciated.

[ColinB]

Yes rpjallan I am still around, I filed a piece of phosphor bronze that I had ( I used to build classic bikes so I had a bit to use as a drift) down to about 1mm and then glued it on top of the bogie. I will take a photo of it for you in the morning.

[ColinB]

Here are the photos of it attached on the underside of the bogie, I think Barrie Davis of the YouTube videos used a washer.

[rpjallan]

Great! Thanks Colin.

[Topcat1707821625]

I've only just come across this topic when the latest posts were made. Here's an off-the-wall suggestion. If you want magnetic adhesion why not fix a thin piece of steel underneath the loco bogie and bury some neodymium magnets between the sleepers in the track bed of the points? You could use some quite powerful round rod magnets. Obviously the feasibility of this would depend on how many sets of points need this treatment and how much you want to spend.

[Topcat1707821625]

Here's a better idea, if no one has already suggested it (I haven't read every post in this topic). Why not fix a thin, square neodymium magnet on top of the bogie and another on the underside of the loco chassis, with like poles facing. These will repel each other and provide a downward force. You probably wouldn't need high grade magnets, say N35?

[threelink]

@Topcat

Nice idea. Triple irony (see my earlier posts) - come back Triang Magnadhesion, all is forgiven!

I find a lump of lead glued on as per Colin B's phosphor bronze works perfectly well so long as b2bs are correct, the bogie is set up so as to avoid lifting the front driver off the rails and has sufficient vertical play to allow it to adjust to any uneveness in the point. It goes without saying that points ideally should be tolerably level with proper clearance between check rails and wing rails, and the point blades fitting snugly.

It seems that sometimes one just has to accept a small departure from true scale appearance in order to have a loco which actually works.

[Topcat1707821625]

Mmm! Lifting the front drive wheels off the rails could be a problem if you used mutually repelling magnets, so a lump of lead might be the simplest and best solution, but why would you put it underneath the bogie and spoil the appearance when there seems to be plenty of room on top, and why would it affect the front drive wheels if it was positioned with its C of G directly over the bogie axle.

I also find bits of lead flashing great for adding weight to Chinese-made tank engines that are so light they have virtually no adhesion in their original form. Just cram it into every available space.

[threelink]

@Topcat

Hi. For the avoidance of doubt, the lead can go anywhere that there is room to accommodate it. The reference to lifting the front drivers arises from circumstances I have encountered where the bogie lifts the front of the loco because of eg over-stiff springing. The weight has no effect on the drivers (unless it fouls the loco mainframes, so lifting the drivers). Sorry if I did not make this clear.

With you all the way on weighting locos with lead but it can be overdone. I paid a song for a beautiful brass GW prairie only to find that it was grossly over-weighted . Molten lead had been poured into the body making it far too heavy for the mechs, which were hopelssly inadequate to move such a ponderous lump, and therefore worn out. I cannot think of any way to get the lead out without ruining the body.

[Brew Man]

@threelink

If the lead is accessible, can you not create a series of holes by drilling part way through in various parts of the lead thus making it lighter overall?

[threelink]

@Brew Man

Your suggestion gratefully received but accessibility is the problem. Much of the lead is in the smokebox and I cannot see a way to remove the smokebox front or door without damage because the lead must have been poured in molten and seems to have bonded to the front and door. Perhaps I shall have to grasp the nettle, saw off the door, drill out as much lead as possible and then find a new door. This still leaves the problem of the lead poured into the rest of the body (presumably when upside down) which has bonded as a thick slab to the upper parts of the boiler, firebox and side tanks. Dismantling the body would be the answer but this would only be possible by heating it to a temperature sufficient to melt the lead at which point I would expect the solder used in the loco's construction to melt too. I would then have to salvage as many parts as possible from the resulting puddle of molten metal. On balance I think life is probably too short!

There are occasions when I am just bemused by the lengths to which some people will go to destroy expensive models - this is not the only meddled with example I have bought but it is the only one which, thus far, has defeated me.

[The son of Triangman]

Also check the back to back measurement as the China factories aren't too fussy about getting it right.