Power to 3-rail system

[Jamjar1707822929]

I'm not a modeller but like old train sets on a pure nostalgia basis (I'm 73)

I acquired an old 3-rail system a while back and have set up a simple circuit with 2 sets of points going into side straights. I am having trouble with power to the track. I have connected a controller which measures appx 14 volts output. When this is connected to the power connection rail in isolation, I can measure 14 volts on the rail with one probe on the side and one on the centre rail. As soon as I connect the power rail into the circuit, I get no power readings at the connectors or any part of the track. Any suggestions as to what to check/look for please ?

[RDS]

@John

Welcome to the Forum. We have one member in particular (yelrow) who runs 3 rail, so hopefully he will see your post and be able to offer some help. Others may be in a position to help as well.

Whilst you wait for an answer:

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[P-Henny]

Just to clarify. You can measure 14 volts across the power track rails when the power track is not connected to any other section of track. But the 14 volts disappears when you attach the power track to the rest of the layout track.

The most likely fault is that one or more of the main track pieces is generating a short circuit. What you need to do is rebuild the layout by attaching one track piece at a time until you find the track piece that is generating the short. This is most likely to be a point [turnout] than either a straight or a curve track piece.

[Yelrow]

Hi John, I run 3 rail daily. Power is normally connected by small straight rail with 2 screw connectors’ readily available on eBay. Tis a fairly simple job to solder 2 wires to a half straight. Solder to centre rail and one of the other 2. . Cut a slot in side to allow wires out. Don’t know about 14 volts, I use H and M , Duette or clipper controllers, both easily sourced on eBay. Best way to test power, start with your track power rail, then continue to add rails, testing supply as you go. The older track sometimes fails on central joiners. Also, you can replace the odd Couplers, which tend to rust. Once you have completed one oval, and power works, you can add points in. Again, faultyoints through age are common. What locos do you have. Unfortunately, we cannot exchange emails, as you can on other forums. Let me know how you go. I am 79.

[Yelrow]

Curious my posting was stopped when P Henny posted, hence, blank posting. Always happy to address 3 rail queries, after 48 years of running Hornby Dublo 3 rail trains and track.

[Howbi]

Also check the ends of the centre conductor rails as they can get bent down to touch the metal base.

[Jamjar1707822929]

Hi John, I run 3 rail daily. Power is normally connected by small straight rail with 2 screw connectors’ readily available on eBay. Tis a fairly simple job to solder 2 wires to a half straight. Solder to centre rail and one of the other 2. . Cut a slot in side to allow wires out. Don’t know about 14 volts, I use H and M , Duette or clipper controllers, both easily sourced on eBay. Best way to test power, start with your track power rail, then continue to add rails, testing supply as you go. The older track sometimes fails on central joiners. Also, you can replace the odd Couplers, which tend to rust. Once you have completed one oval, and power works, you can add points in. Again, faultyoints through age are common. What locos do you have. Unfortunately, we cannot exchange emails, as you can on other forums. Let me know how you go. I am 79.

Thank you. I've got the short rail eith the 2 screws and that's where I can measure the voltage ok. I can see from your's and one other thst I need to start from scratch and rebuild the track section by section until I find the faulty part ot parts! That will be over a few days but I'll get started this week.

Only one engine at present, Duchess of Atholl - motor running ok when power applied to chassis and track pickup.

[Jamjar1707822929]

Just to clarify. You can measure 14 volts across the power track rails when the power track is not connected to any other section of track. But the 14 volts disappears when you attach the power track to the rest of the layout track.

The most likely fault is that one or more of the main track pieces is generating a short circuit. What you need to do is rebuild the layout by attaching one track piece at a time until you find the track piece that is generating the short. This is most likely to be a point [turnout] than either a straight or a curve track piece.

 

 

[Jamjar1707822929]

Thank you. Can see I need to dismantle and rebuild testing as I go!

I'll update when I can get to it.

[Yelrow]

Dutchess of Atholl, very rugged and bullet proof. Only fault may be needs re magnetising. I have done all mine (19) locos, getting hard to find missing ones. If you lay track as i suggested, will run ok. Clean track with green square kitchen scourer, or rough side of piece of hardboard. Never had a dirt problem, Finest track produced in my view, Great noise when up and running. Any other questions, just ask.

[Going Spare]

Assuming Jamjar has a H-D controller of Duchess of Atholl vintage, would not there be either a reset button (black box) or a light signifying a short-circuit (A3, Marshall, etc)?

@jamjar - if your controller is of that vintage, and if it is a one-piece transformer/controller which may be double insulated, have you had it checked over for electrical safety?

[VESPA]

Being another HD 3 rail user of 64 years, I am wondering if you are using a Hornby Dublo controller with 3 sets of connections in the back. On top it would have a red light (for shorts) and a 2" handle to control. Connected with the "hold" part of the handle pointing downwards should give NO VOLTS at the rails. If that is happening, and you have a reading, then you have connected into the 16V AC accessories socket which would show that 14v you have. As already stated, check non of the centre rail connections are touching the rail base when connected as that will cause a short. 3 rail is the simplest method of wiring any layout. Should you buy any points get self isolating ones, usually recognised by a square centre connector and not the rounded off type.

[Yelrow]

Hi, vespa, good point, there cant be many Dublo controllers about, these days. I ditched mine foe Duetttes.

[Brew Man]

I should think any controllers left over from those bygone days will have to say the least questionably adequate insulation, much of it being rubber which will have perished. Even plastic insulation will have hardened and cracked. So yes, good idea to ditch and replace such controllers.

[Jamjar1707822929]

Re previous replies I am using a more modern contoller and, following earlier advice on here I have been removing each section of track in turn, cleaning & replacing it with positive results. A bit juddery in some places, smooth in others but definitely got motion!

I'm using surgical spirit to clean rails, which I understand is equivalent of PA.

A way to go all round but promising. Any other suggestions on 3-rail track cleaning welcome!

[Rog RJ]

Surgical spirit sometimes contains oils and perfumes. The oil will cause dust and dirt to stick. I prefer meths as an alternative to IPA.

What controller are you using? Modern ones, especially low cost ones, aren't sufficiently powerful to run old locos.

[96RAF]

ATF (automatic transmission fluid) is supposedly conductive and in theory will also protect old steel rails against further corrosion, but in my mind oil is oil and by nature a lubricant hence you can get wheel slip.

[sagaguy]

Hi John, I run 3 rail daily. Power is normally connected by small straight rail with 2 screw connectors’ readily available on eBay. Tis a fairly simple job to solder 2 wires to a half straight. Solder to centre rail and one of the other 2. . Cut a slot in side to allow wires out. Don’t know about 14 volts, I use H and M , Duette or clipper controllers, both easily sourced on eBay. Best way to test power, start with your track power rail, then continue to add rails, testing supply as you go. The older track sometimes fails on central joiners. Also, you can replace the odd Couplers, which tend to rust. Once you have completed one oval, and power works, you can add points in. Again, faultyoints through age are common. What locos do you have. Unfortunately, we cannot exchange emails, as you can on other forums. Let me know how you go. I am 79.

Thank you. I've got the short rail eith the 2 screws and that's where I can measure the voltage ok. I can see from your's and one other thst I need to start from scratch and rebuild the track section by section until I find the faulty part ot parts! That will be over a few days but I'll get started this week.

Only one engine at present, Duchess of Atholl - motor running ok when power applied to chassis and track pickup.

Hang on,you`re not using a short isolating rail for trying to connect to the track are you?.That has two terminals but they are for isolating sections,both terminals are connected to the centre rail.Incidentaly,the centre rail is negative and the outer rails are postive.The locomtive should run in a forward direction when the controller handle is moved forward.

[Yelrow]

The point about controllers, is well made. 3 rail locos, draw much more current on start up, and of course, being much better built than modern locos, weigh much more. Hence my point regarding the purchase of a H&J, clipper, or twin Duette. Both of these, i have 7 of each, will supply all your needs. There is a lot of talk about track cleaning, and NO need to apply any liquids. I have been running 3 rail for years, and only dry clean. finest thing is rough side of hardboard. Make up a few 2x1 inch offcuts. Track rubbers, also work. I have scotchbrite rectangular green plastic scourers. Much of my spare track has the odd rust patch, which buffs off with any of the above. You have to remember the much better quality of locos, pick ups, track joining system. Track locks together. You can pick up several joined pieces, a bit like decent jigsaws. Quality, quality, quality. Prejudiced? certainly, but its a proven system, dry clean.

[ellocoloco]

I think robust would be a much better way describe Hornby Dublo than quality. The models are inaccurate, undetailed, over weight and inefficient. Fine for a child's toy but not a scale model railway. Modern models are better in every way except survivability when being handled by a child - or clumsy adult.

Hornby Dublo's inexcusable crime was of course perpetuating the 1/76 scale and 16.5mm gauge combination that continues to curse British outline models.

[Yelrow]

Ellocoloco, hi, each to their own. On their day, and bearing in mind they were aimed at childs market, they made a lot of kids, very content. To my mind there is nothing better to listen to , when they pound round tin track. As to modern models being better, Ridiculously expensive, fragile, cheap motors, and lack of spares. I have no problem, sourcing very cheap Hornby Dublo spares. .

[Rana Temporia]

When I was at Junior school in the mid 1970s we used to have a model railway exhibition every year as part of the summer fair where pupils and parents would take a layout as part of it. My favourite was always the 3 rail exhibition layout that one of the parents had with various converted Tri-ang locos on it as well as the Hornby Dublo and I think Trix and Grafar. It always ran well and as has been said, the locos have a presence and a sound that modern locos don’t have. They will also probably outlast anything being made at the moment. I know which I would prefer.

At these events my layout usually consisted of some painted hardboard with track laid onto it and my Tri-ang Hornby Hall whizzing round one way with three or four Hornby GWR Mk 1 coaches and another loco going in the opposite direction, usually a Tri-ang Princess with some re-wheeled shortie blood and custard coaches although my pannier and blue class 31 also made an appearance. I had the dreadful first version of system 6 track that my dock shunter (amongst other locos) bounced along on the chairs so I had to be careful which locos and stock I took with me.

[Yelrow]

Rana, my 19 3 rail locos, would tend to prove a point about lasting. How many of the new ones, will still be running perfectly, in 60 years time. Of course, i take the point about scale and detail, but these have been demanded by the wealthier modeller. Hornby have only followed demand, as have others, and this is allegedly progress. The village children who come here, fight over controlling the 3 rail locos, that stay glued to the track, and make that super noise.

[Jamjar1707822929]

Surgical spirit sometimes contains oils and perfumes. The oil will cause dust and dirt to stick. I prefer meths as an alternative to IPA.

What controller are you using? Modern ones, especially low cost ones, aren't sufficiently powerful to run old locos.

Thanks for tip re meths - I'll swap over to that redo sectoons already done.

Controller is a Bachmann 6607A.

[threelink]

@RT and Yelrow

I share your fondness for HD 3 rail. One of my happiest memories is of a loft layout made by a late uncle in his house in Shrewsbury. It was a real childhood treat to visit, 60 odd years ago, and be allowed to run it, with the sound of the real thing sloggging up a bank at the bottom of his garden, rattling the roof tiles. When my uncle passed away, my aunt generously said I could dismantle the layout and keep the stock, which I still have - most of it in perfect condition and in its original boxes. It is little run, sadly, but I would never part with it - it has such presence and gravitas.