HM DCC

[See See Rider]

I'm sure the video says sound only works with DCC ie an alternating current

 

 

Hi David, I've read that too in more than one place.

 

 

If it really is the case that all we need to add to an existing DC powered layout, is the HM7020 'PSU harness' connected to the rails and its 15V wall power adaptor (plus the new App), to get these new 'TXS' decoders running then great.

 

 

[TT-Man]

That is an extremely informative video and article posted by @Fishmanoz, which explains the system better than any of the information on Hornby's website.

Glad to see it provides the dimensions of the chips, something missing from Hornby's shop. I hope in the future that they will produce the Powerbank in other sizes (as do DCC Concepts) as the current one is rather large. It is generally small locos that need a stay alive and I doubt this one would fit into a small loco easily.

I will definitely be buying a dongle so that I can give this system a tryout with my current DCC system. Even if all I use it for is the ease of CV tinkering it will be worth it.

For newcomers to DCC this system is truly amazing value.

[Chris98]

I am a newcomer and until yesterday was researching which dcc controller to buy. It makes sense for me to go down the hm7000 route as you say the value alone makes it a certainty for me and takes away the guess work and havong to find other decoders and controllers that are compatible/reliable etc Does anyone know if an accessory decoder is in the planning?

[TT-Man]

At the moment this is DDC 'Light' as there is no provision for accessory decoders to give point control and route selection or block detection for controlling hidden storage etc. So wouldn't be much use with sophisticated systems like Train Controller or iTrain. But I bet the large majority only want DCC for sound and multiple train control anyway. For that this is an absolute bargain.

I am sure that at the very least accessory decoders will come later.

[Fishmanoz]

@Shunter, the answer to your is yes or agree as applicable. There are no no/do not agree answers. However, there is one qualification - while DCC point clips may well work for years, they can sometimes fail and power bus and droppers from it to the rails is better technology.

@CCRider, you are correct and all those suggesting a controller is needed for sound are definitely misinformed.

@LT&SR, see the new sticky

[96RAF]

At the moment this is DDC 'Light' as there is no provision for accessory decoders to give point control and route selection or block detection for controlling hidden storage etc. So wouldn't be much use with sophisticated systems like Train Controller or iTrain. But I bet the large majority only want DCC for sound and multiple train control anyway. For that this is an absolute bargain.

I am sure that at the very least accessory decoders will come later.

 

 

Acc decoders are already here as HM6010 work with this App and provide control of solenoids, signals, lighting and turntables. The HM7040 dongle will be made to work with R8247 PADs for legacy control and likely later on with other make acc decoders similar to Railmaster.

[david_watts1]

Just wondering on what type of phone or tablet specs are required to run the app since my phone is 8 years old and is running Android 5.0.2

PS I'd also like to Thank anyone who has answered my questions, they are very helpful.

[number1]

From what I understand for DCC you need a 15v supply to the track, can this be any transformer rated to 15v or do you need to go through a Hornby type controller? I also assume the one provided in the Train sets aren't suitable.

Thanks for looking.

[Brew Man]

Just wondering on what type of phone or tablet specs are required to run the app since my phone is 8 years old and is running Android 5.0.2

PS I'd also like to Thank anyone who has answered my questions, they are very helpful.

 

 

IIRC, the minimum Android version to support BLE is Android 5, so you might be OK, (I could be wrong though). However, there may well be other features in the App that require a later version of Android. It would be best to check with Hornby. 8 years is very old for a phone.

[96RAF]

Check with Hornby on marketing@hornby.com ref kit spec to run the app on, but 5 years is being spoken about as max vintage. I have an iPad Air on v12.5.6 and that is marginal pending app tweaks.

Power supplies. It is now recommended that you do not use an analogue train controller as an intermediary to power the track, but instead wire the PSU direct to the track using the adapter cable.

Else use DCC track power with an NMRA compliant controller for direct operation of legacy decoders in parallel with app control of 7000 series decoders.

[david_watts1]

@Brew Man, 96RAF Thanks for the info. I'm a big believer in 'If it's not broken then don't fix it' or replace it. It does what I need it to, so why get a new one.

[dBerriff]

I think Hornby need to be clearer about which power supplies are suitable for use with their adapter cable. The adaptor web page mentions 15V but not the current requirements. The Upgrade Path mentions the current requirement but not the voltage.

Considering the hostile, online reaction to Hornby getting anything wrong (I am trying to be constructive here) I suggest that a very specific list of power supplies, by part number, is given on the product pages.

I see, for example, that the power supply included with my Hogwarts Express set, P9000W, has its secondary rated at 19V d.c., 0.5A. That fails on two counts against the Hornby criteria, but someone, somewhere, is going to try it.

[Fishmanoz]

Given the answer includes the PSU for any 12v DC train controller and any DCC controller you can think of, that will be a long list.

The PSU for your Hogwarts set will be on the list too. Given the current rating and in common with the PSU for all such controllers, the chances are it will only be able to control 2 locos before overload.

[Brew Man]

@Brew Man, 96RAF Thanks for the info. I'm a big believer in 'If it's not broken then don't fix it' or replace it. It does what I need it to, so why get a new one.

 

 

The problem comes though when you want to use a new app that has features not supported by older OSs. It happens all the time, not just with phones but with computers in general. At least some of the time I believe it is done deliberately to coax people into buying the latest hardware.

[dBerriff]

If 19V will not cause problems then that is good news because there must be a lot of those train-set “transformers” in circulation.

P.S. my thoughts applied to current Hornby listed items only. If the excellent HM7000 system attracts users new to DCC then they will want to know what to use or buy.

Hornby specifies 15V, not me. I will be using my Select Controller - which does have a 15V supply - with a “Dongle”, and Hogwarts Castle will be updated to have sound. Exciting times.

[96RAF]

It is recognised that a low power PSU like the P9000 will only support a single 00 loco or possibly two TT:120 locos so the web-pages will be amended to recommend using the P9300 PSU for multiple locos. No different from a Select or eLink PSU upgrade being recommended.

P9100 and some Scalex PSUs will provide 1 or 1.2 amps so again they may well be restrictive on loco numbers dependent upon scale.

The whole power supply advice is being reviewed and amendments to the various pages will be introduced.

With regard to which device the App will run on that will be made clear in the app stores - anything over 5 years old is unlikely to be suitable. This problem runs across the whole mobile app industry. I have a perfectly serviceable Win 10 phone that is virtually unsupported, I have an old iPad that cannot be updated to run current apps, I have an iPad Air that is also stuck at a certain update which will not reliably run the HM7K app yet. My newer iPad Pro is fine and I await the Android version to see if my new Samsung phone will work with the app.

The app is essential to get the decoders configured to the loco you are installing them in - motor characteristics, correct function button captions, etc. Thereafter it is down to the controller in use being NMRA compatible. Hornby have many alien make controllers to test with but they cannot reasonably be expected to test each and every device out there. No other manufacturer bothers.

[dBerriff]

I am trying hard not to come across as negative as I am really excited about the system. Any comment is meant as a constructive suggestion as I have seen first hand as a college lecturer just how much matters electrical can baffle some people.

[P-Henny]

I see, for example, that the power supply included with my Hogwarts Express set, P9000W, has its secondary rated at 19V d.c., 0.5A. That fails on two counts against the Hornby criteria, but someone, somewhere, is going to try it.

 

 

Something that others have failed to notice or comment on. Hornby (according to replies in this forum) are focusing on the 15 volt power supplies as being suitable for powering HM7000 controlled track.

There is one common thing about these power supplies. They all have 6.3mm/3.0mm (or 3.1mm?) DC Coax plugs. Whereas the unsuitable 19 volt power supply mentioned and other Hornby supplies do not. The unsuitable supplies have 5.5mm/2.1mm DC Coax plugs. Therefore if it is assummed that the published HM7000 power adaptor cable has a 6.3mm/3.xmm inline socket to work with the recommended 15 volt supplies then only suitable Hornby power supplies can use it as the 5.5mm plug is too small for the 6.3mm socket.

[96RAF]

Correct P-H, there will be another adapter cable to suit the other PSUs. Already thought of.

[dBerriff]

Excellent point, and one I had missed. So all Hornby has to do is list the compatible Hornby 15V supplies and state that any other Hornby supply is incompatible. Edit. … or not.

Any other maker’s supply, including those of unknown quality with multiple coax-plug sizes, will be connected at the user’s risk.

[Fishmanoz]

Defining whether a PSU is suitable based on whether it has a particular plug on the end of it is not a good way to go.

Try cutting the plug off the end of the cable on all contenders with the intention of connection it to your bus or soldering it to track. Now what is suitable?

The answer is the supplies that have correct voltage and tolerance - it would be good to know what this range is Rob - and suitable ampage. Amps will be from about 1 Amp to 4. Less than 1 Amp and you will probably be limited to running 2, at the most 3, locos. More than 4, given the locos on your track will draw only what they need no matter how much is available, runs the risk with higher power and more damage under fault conditions. 4 Amps will run 10 locos and try to keep track of that many in practice.

[dBerriff]

But Hornby has to do that because they have brought out an adaptor cable with a barrel socket on one end and two pins on the other to connect to the Hornby power track.

Hornby is attracting new users who do not necessarily know much about Volts, Amps and DCC.

For all these new users all I am trying to suggest is that the requirements for using the adaptor cable are spelt out in clear, complete and definitive terms. I understand now that this will be done, so all is good.

[Brew Man]

Defining whether a PSU is suitable based on whether it has a particular plug on the end of it is not a good way to go.

Try cutting the plug off the end of the cable on all contenders with the intention of connection it to your bus or soldering it to track. Now what is suitable?

The answer is the supplies that have correct voltage and tolerance - it would be good to know what this range is Rob - and suitable ampage. Amps will be from about 1 Amp to 4. Less than 1 Amp and you will probably be limited to running 2, at the most 3, locos. More than 4, given the locos on your track will draw only what they need no matter how much is available, runs the risk with higher power and more damage under fault conditions. 4 Amps will run 10 locos and try to keep track of that many in practice.

 

 

I can't see Hornby or any other legitimate company advising customers to go cutting plugs off any electrical equipment. Could get them into very hot water. All they can do is state minimum requirements and their own specs, plug sizes etc.

[Fishmanoz]

Not at all suggesting they would or should BM, I just used this to illustrate the point that the plug doesn’t define suitability, although it does help usability, the power spec of the supply does.

And for anyone using a bus and droppers for their layout, do you think they are going to use the cable? They are far more likely to use more direct connections like chocblocks or direct soldering. But then these people won’t be the very newcomers, they'll be older hands who new what they were doing in the first place.

By the way, I’ll mention it now as no one has brought it up yet - what about the I think Toshiba laptop supply that is suitable as a cheaper 4 Amp option for Select and eLink because it has the correct plug. For me, this would be just about the best way to go, although it still needs the converter cable unless you wire a compatible socket at the front end of your bus system.

[96RAF]

A few things we do know,

Every power supply has a label telling of its type (switched mode, etc), its input and output voltages and current. The attached jack plug in general categorises the equipment it is suitable for - I.e. if it plugs in then the voltage at least should match. Current is another thing, which depends upon what the end use is (E.g. 1 or 99 locos).

The new Hornby decoders are rated at 27v max to cater for DCC track +/- voltage. It is unlikely anyone will apply this level of DC voltage direct to the track as it could effect other devices using track power.

What we don’t know is the quality of any alien make or even clone power supplies, and as these are outwith Hornby control they make note in the decoder manual about their use and affect on warranty claims. The manual also talks to suitable Hornby power supplies and unsuitable power supply methods, including DC controllers and why they are unsuitable, usually inadequate current capability and PWM frequency.

I could copy and paste from the draft manual I have but much of it is still being edited, so I have loosely quoted from it instead.

The advice given is to not use any DC controller as the track power source but to use their PSU instead wired direct to the track. The use of the jack socket to track plug adapter cable is Hornby’s way of making this easy for you. As Fishy says an experienced user will develop their own solution out of bits laying around.

Finally the decoder manual is not in public view but I am authorised to copy and paste commentary from it to support any argument.