Why is Hornby and other manufactures pricing new and young modellers out of the hobby

[James-347554]

I'm a 16 year old boy who has been interested in the hobby for 6 years. When i started I used to be able to buy my own models on a one off and could convince parents and family to buy me gifts. However now the hobby has become so expensive that building my layout is becoming ever difficult and my interest in the hobby has begun to dwindle. I'm also interested in Scalextric but the same problem here is a lack of affordable expansions for my hobby.

Please Hornby HELP

[Rog RJ]

I had the same problem when I was a youngster. I'm 70 now and still have the same problem, except I don't have any relatives that buy me any railway stuff.

[threelink]

James, I was saddened to read your post. Yes, new models are horribly expensive, even for old codgers like me. The only suggestion I can make is to look at the second hand market - preferably via your local model shop, where you can inspect what you are buying and no doubt see it running before you buy. The alternatives are ebay and train fairs but you can easily buy a turkey and lose your money. As you will see from my earlier post about affordable modelling, it is possible to create locos and rolling stock very cheaply but it does require some knowledge and technical ability. Unless and until the manufacturers wake up to the fact that not all of us can afford (or even want) all singing all dancing expensive locos and stock, there is a danger that younger modellers such as you and older modellers such as I will simply give up modelling in financial despair. I hope that you will find a way to stick with the hobby - it's deeply satisfying, as I am sure you will know.

Best wishes,

Threelink

[ntpntpntp]

@james I do sympathise.

The thing is, railway modelling has never been a cheap hobby unless you focus on buying older second-hand models and making up kits or scratch-built. It started as a rich man's hobby and even going back to the 50s/60s things like Hornby Dublo were expensive until the likes of Rovex / Triang came along with cheaper more "toy-like" plastic models.

The demand for ever increasing fine detail, fidelity to prototype and quality of mechanisms all increases the cost, plus the ever increasing spiral of cost of tooling and manufacturing for what is really a tiny market (a few 1000s of something) without the scope for the economies of scale you see with common consumer goods which are made in their millions.

Manufacturers do try and offer "beginner" ranges such as Hornby Railroad, often using old tooling and simplified models.

[96RAF]

This is where buying second hand and learning to fettle them increases your modelling skill sets, E.g. learning the trade. It can be extremely satisfying to bring an otherwise dead model back to life.

[LTSR_NSE]

No company in a capitalist economy, will willingly sell products for any less than the maximum they can (except for introductory offers to attract new customers). Unfortunately (judging by prices) this hobby appears to be catering for an ever decreasing customer base.

If a company produces a relatively simple range of items, made using cheap manufacturing methods, sells tens of thousands of each item, then each item can be sold at an affordable price and the company is still profitable. Whereas if a company produces a fairly wide range of different items, made using expensive manufacturing methods, only sells a couple of thousand of each item, then each item has to be priced fairly high for the company to be profitable.

Generally one of the most expensive manufacturing costs is human employees, therefore with evermore detailed and hand assembled models, prices will continue to grow. It would interesting to see the price difference (and to people who enjoy modelling!) if a manufacturer produced a modern spec loco - with all separately fitted components in bags for the purchaser to fit themselves!

[threelink]

I do not think that we should overlook that the models James is likely to have (presumably modern ones) will be a lot more difficult to repair than those that I (and I suspect many contributors to this site) will have cut their teeth on. My old Triang trains were affordable to parents, robust, simple and pretty easy to service or repair. Modern stuff is very different and in many cases incapable of repair in any event. Whatever the ideology, the net result is the same - a shrinking market because people are discouraged by the cost. Triang made toy trains. That they were capable of improvement by detailing was a bonus. No-one makes toy trains any more, except Hornby whose toy offerings are not capable of improvement or detailing into models. If the manufacturers cant "get 'em young", they never will.

[DarkRedCape]

This was one of the reasons why I didn’t get into the hobby sooner. The other reason being space for a proper layout.

Yes times are hard and things are expensive, but I’ve lost count of how many news articles I’ve read about companies justifying why everything costs so much, then the next paragraph says they are making record profits. It would be naive to think that Hornby aren’t guilty of price gouging to some extent, to what extent we will likely never know.

It used to be the old line of, something is what you’re willing to pay for it. I think those days are dead. I think something is what a company what’s you to pay for, not what it’s actually worth, or how much you want it, and I don’t think it’ll ever go back.

[ModelerXYZ]

James, I sympathise very much. Welcome to the forum. I know even the apparently more "affordable" railroad range is well outside my current budget. I am fortunate that in the few years I have been modelling I have aquired a reasonable amount of both locos and rolling stock. This allows me to run a veriety of trains. However, I have an unmatched set with 2 railroad pulmans. The third coach is in red. When I bought them they were about 13.50 each. Now the price is 27.50, so I can't afford to complete the set.

Track is also now too expensive. My pointwork is in shocking condition but I don't have the cash to replace them.

Space for a layout depends on what you want to play, my previous layout was 2ft by 9ft with a 4 foot by 2ft section at one corner.

What control system are you using? I use anolouge, I like it more than digital and its cheaper to set up as well.

XYZ

[Fazy]

Hornby and other companies are not pricing anyone out of the Hobby. Companies want to make a return on their investment/ standard profits are in the region of 15% on products sold. Unless your Apple or the like then you stick the margin wherever you want and make millions.

However if your goods cost more to produce, that 15% is obviously worth more and you make record profits. so if you produce a model cost you £ 100 this year you sell it £115. Next year it cost £110 you sell it at £126.50. Hornby has made an extra £1.50 and you might say why Hornby can’t pass that back as a saving to the customer. It’s to do with banks and profit forecasting. Hornby takes out a loan from a back the bank wants to know your expected profit return,

The reason for rising costs are plenty and all over the news.

[What About The Bee]

While I do have some sympathy for James, it is tinged with a healthy dose of realism.

With due respect to "record profits", those are in absolute dollars, not inflation adjusted dollars.

To anyone who hasn't seen the accounting numbers on a project, the price of any item seems a mystery. Who pays for the Customer Representatives who answer your questions? Does Simon work for free? Did the shipping fee factor in to your numbers? How about debt service on business loans? The rent on the offices. The health insurance for office staff? How about Montana, does she work for free? The engineers? The manufacturing facility in China?

The short answer is YOU. You pay for all of this, plus a return on investment for the shareholders. You pay for it in the price of a model.

Unlike one youTube reviewer who states that the price of a model is somehow related to its size (?!? here's looking at you ST.), the roll up cost of a model is a business decision.

It is up to the purchaser to decide if it is worth it. And within their budget.

As to you James, may I suggest the second hand market. There are plenty of excellent videos showing repairs. The hobby is much, much more than buying a ready to run locomotive and turning the controller knob.

Bee

[Topcat2018]

I got my first (Tri-ang) train set when I was 9 years old. Of course the great thing was to run the train around the track as fast as possible, so derailments were frequent, but no loco or rolling stock ever suffered serious damage. I don't think you could leave the average 9-year old unsupervised in charge of a modern train set.

So my advice to a younger enthusiast starting out would be to begin with some older, British-made stuff. It is cheaper, more robust and easier to repair, assuming you can get the parts. (Note how Hornby ads up to and beyond the mid-20th century always showed boys playing with trains sets - never girls).

[Tony57]

Hi James

This great hobby is getting too expensive for most of us.

Depending on what era you want to model I would look for end of Margate / Early China made models they were better made with a good amount of detail. OK they are not DCC ready and would need hard wiring but the Ringfield motor are home serviceable and repairable unlike the more modern can motors.

[atom3624]

Everyone is enjoying the increased precision of modern manufacturing technology and the tolerances available - even if the QC is poor!! - and relishing to see / experience the fantastic models now available from Hornby and really quite a lot of other now-familiar and very good manufacturers.

With this increased technology comes ... a price.

There was also that huge escalation of container costs and charges incurred during the recent Pandemic, which seems irreversible - costs have to be passed on to 'the consumer' for an operator to function, unfortunately.

I totally agree - they're way too expensive, and hiking up prices 'at a whim' 10% here, 10% there ... so that a locomotive announced 2 years ago for £180 now costs £225 does make my blood boil ... unfortunate but that's where we are now.

Al.

[Mercat]

Model railways is a very small market these days. The smaller the market gets the more expensive it will become.

There are also a lot more ways to spend your dollar in pursuit of leisure activities than there were twenty years ago (gaming comes to mind). Unless a steady stream of younger enthusiasts can be brought on board, I’m afraid it could be priced out of existence or just die for lack of interest.

When it comes to profit, it benefits all of us if companies make enough not only to stay afloat but also enough to expand their services and products. 

I’m not sure if long term there is any future in model railways. I did read that younger generations were not that interested in collecting things that they perceived to have little value. I wondered if that was why stamp collecting had fallen out of favour, when was the last time anyone brought a stamp. It was also stated that they did not have the emotional connection with trains that the older generations did.

Maybe the best thing we can do is help grow the future consumer base by introducing and encouraging others to take up the hobby, this along with the transfer of skills will hopefully ensure not only the survivability of the hobby but hopefully bring the costs down. Better yet let’s get all the old trains back on the tracks and get kids riding the rails.

[Kettering Junction]

When I was youngster, I remember Beatties selling locos for around £50. My first two were a Foster Yeoman 59 and King George II. Seemed expensive in the mid 90’s, but when you consider the modern railroad range, I don’t think the prices are too bad. Although my 85th Mallard, Dublo Scotsman and 6203 have just cost me nearly £750. That does seem crazy and certainly not affordable.

[The Doc]

A couple of suggestions for those on a tight budget:

Lima diesels tend to be very robust, serviceable and repairable, and unless you go for a rarer limited edition, there are plenty on the secondhand market as "serious" enthusiasts replace theirs with much more modern spec diesels with the latest must have details (chains between the body and the bogies, anyone?). From 3 feet away you would be hard pushed to tell my Lima Deltic from the Bachmann one.

When buying rolling stock, secondhand is a safer bet than buying locos, since there is less to go wrong. I have bought very few coaches and even fewer wagons brand new. I would avoid certain brands (Triang, Trix, Hornby Dublo, Playcraft/Jouef) as they may have different couplings and, in the case of Triang, thicker wheel flanges that don't like modern track. Most older Hornby, Airfix, Mainline and Lima wagons can be picked up secondhand for a fraction of the price of brand new models. Bachmann tend to be a little more expensive - sometimes slightly newer and more accurate designs, but they don't necessarily look or run any nicer.

[sxbiker]

This is an interesting issue. I am in my 70s. Thinking back, loco models in particular, locomotive have always been expensive relatively. As a child I had to save my pocket money for months just to buy a Triang or Hornby wagon. Locomotives were way out of reach for me, I had to make do with second hand from jumble sales etc. The earliest acquisition I can remember was in 1966/7, a second hand Hornby 2rail 4-6-2 tank for the sum of 30/- (£1.50), that represented nearly 25% of my weekly wage at the time).

As times have gone by, we as modellers, have wanted more detail & bigger ranges in a hobby that has become les & less popular. All this comes at a cost in a much smaller market.

[atom3624]

When I was a lad, I remember an off-scale Man City coloured Lima Class 33 brand new ... for a fiver !!

Al.

[AndyMac1707817969]

When I was young I got one loco for my birthday and one for Christmas. Apart from a few bits of rolling stock the money I saved to go on holiday that was it. Companies and certain institutions like Government unfortunately have to live in the real world where things cost what they cost and what you sell something for has to be more than what you make it for. They do not have the luxury that the general public have where something is what they ‘might imagine’, which of course means they just made it up. Hornby as a company rarely seem to make a profit so I am not sure why you might think their prices are too expensive. They hardly pay huge dividends on their shares. Bit like people complaining the cost of their rail ticket is too expensive when the tax payer is subsiding the real cost by about 30%. Surely to most sane people this means the cost of a rail ticket for example is in fact too cheap and does not reflect the cost of proving the service. When interviewed by the BBC commuters say they support wage increases for rail worker but of course the BBC never ask, would you support these wage increases if they were being paid for by fare increases. In their minds the train ticket fairy will pay for it. The average person seems no longer able to link cost and expense or taxation and public expenditure.

[Fazy]

I remember when I got back into the hobby in the early 2000’s the hobby seemed cheap, to what I remembered I got a little spare cash when I started and had £500 budget for my layout. I bought some track a dcc Dynamic for £72! Class 20,24,25 at £50 each and a class 45 at £55! Shocking I know and most had lights, in a couple of years things were double in price near enough. People were up in arms me included. now the price might seem cheap now for a Model to our younger modeller’s even at double the price. But imagine a model Loco doubling at today’s prices that is the shock people had.

now to the point when I was a kid I was into my trains I might have had £1.50 - £2 pocket money. I might have wanted a chocolate bar and some crisps over the week or nip into town even go and see return of the Jedi. So I had to save like made to buy just a wagon or some people for the layout. Trains and the like were Christmas and Birthday presents only.

the Hobby has always been expensive except for the brief moment of the late 1990s to mid 2000’s.

now the trick is to shop around there are some small model shops around which sell models (second hand) at sensible prices not today’s eBay prices. (eBay use to be fantastic for cheap locos when people where selling things at secondhand prices now at trying to make money prices. £80-90 for a Mainline jubilee, really please behave yourselves!) I managed to pick up a dcc ready Bachmann jubilee for £55 only last year from a shop. You need to look around but bargains can be found.

The other thing to do is go onto RMweb and fine some RTR bashing topics. Learn how to build and convert models to what you want. It takes time but the reward is you end up with models no one else has and to be honest I like some of those more then a £300+ model from Hornby or Bachmann because they are my work. Ask Al with his super double chimney Jubilee.

[dBerriff]

Blame the customers and especially the collectors - they demand the high levels of detail we now get. I am quite happy to buy used and also I thank Hornby for the Railroad range. While I am impressed by many recent releases I very rarely feel the urge to buy. I get as much pleasure from running a 40 year old R761 Kneller Hall as a brand new R3999 Princess Victoria.

Edit: I accept that there are many different ways of enjoying this hobby, but my point is that it does not have to be wickedly expensive.

Attend exhibitions and swap-meets. If you have one, make friends with a local modelling club. Members will be able to give advice on sourcing materials.

There are a few retailers who try hard to keep the costs down - Rocket Railways in Coalville is the one I have looked at. Then you have all the online options, although buyer-beware on that one if buying used.

No manufacturer is immune to the effects of inflation. We have a generation who does not know what that feels like. My monthly broadband bill is about to go up by 15%. It will not be the last bill to increase this year.

[threelink]

What an interesting thread. I suppose that manufacturers have no option but to make and sell that which generates the most profit - apparently the all singing all dancing super detail lines. Sadly, I fear that this will result in an implosion when the generation with disposable income, who can afford them, shuffles off this mortal coil. There does seem to be a demand for less detailed, cheaper models and I wonder if we shall see a manufacturer explore that potential market. I feel sorry for the James of this world, priced out of the hobby not by any deliberate act of any manufacturer but by the demands of the market for ever more detailed, complicated and therefore expensive models.

[Tony57]

Hi

I know we have had grumbles about prices of stuff but has anyone else looked at the prices of the Hornby International range some prices make Hornby UK look cheap.

As I am still collecting rolling stock for my new layout I am only paying a maximum of 40 pounds a loco, 25 pounds for a coach or bogie wagon.

The 45 locos collected so far are Classes 86, 87, 90, 91 with MK4 DVTs and 92 (all will have working overhead pantographs) and Intercity liveried MK2, 3 and 4 coaches, and a selection of modern wagons

[ModelerXYZ]

There is definately a market for cheaper not so detailed models. I can't see the loco detail when its running past anyway. If I want to detail a coach or waggon, I can do it myself. If I don't want to then, I absolutely don't have to have it super detailed. I found the railroad coaches were better runners than the super detailed set I have anyway.

XYZ