threelink Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 You might have been a bit hard on your engineer Bee. Even Homernofs and I believe I am right in saying that Nigel Gresley once designed a loco on which it proved impossible to tighten an oil pipe union without lifting the boiler from the frames. Mind you, I have a Chevy with a drive belt that can only be replaced by removing the offside front wheel and the inner wing mud shield. Guess who has a noisy belt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
threelink Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 Homer nods Oops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM6 Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 26 minutes ago, threelink said: You might have been a bit hard on your engineer Bee. Even Homernofs and I believe I am right in saying that Nigel Gresley once designed a loco on which it proved impossible to tighten an oil pipe union without lifting the boiler from the frames. Mind you, I have a Chevy with a drive belt that can only be replaced by removing the offside front wheel and the inner wing mud shield. Guess who has a noisy belt... Not just Chevy's. Same with my Ford Kuga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generic Hornby Username Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 (edited) I have wondered if there is any appetite for models manufactured in the UK. My guess? Probably not. While we often like to think there would be a group of people who would pay more for domestic products because they're domestically made, businesses have found time and again that it doesn't come to pass.* Price tends to be the ultimate determinate. While I think JK's estimate that the price would balloon by 3x is exaggerated (based on companies like Marklin and Roco that manufacture in the very expensive Germany), I have no doubt it would increase noticeably. How much more are people willing to pay? Suppose a model cost 20% more. Would people be okay with that? Model railways are already an expensive luxury. Making an already expensive luxury even more expensive will be unappealing to most buyers. Dapol's UK wagon production are a rare exception. Because they're only a handful of parts that snap together, the labor intensiveness is pretty minimal. I could assemble one of their 12 Ton ventilated vans easily. But give me Hornby's Black 5, and it would take many times longer. And as the labor intensiveness increases, the advantage of overseas labor costs increases. Dapol has a good niche. But that's all it is. A niche. *Well, there are a few exceptions. For example, Swiss Chocolate sells in the United States where I'm from because it's authentically Swiss. The same goes for French wines. But those are the exceptions rather than the rule. Edited June 29 by Generic Hornby Username Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSR_NSE Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 (edited) I believe that a return of Hornby UK production is completely unviable - however I think the following changes might work**. Split model railway output into 3 very distinct ranges (using historical brand names to better indicate range quality): • Dublo/Bassett Lowke (premium range) - increase prices of these models enough to pay for UK based QA/QC - ensuring that every premium model sent out is near to perfection. • Hornby OO/TT:120 (main/general range) - slightly increase prices enough to pay for an improved standard of QA/QC at factories in China. Hopefully increasing brand reputation for quality, to match current Customer Service reputation. • Triang/Rovex (basic ‘railroad’ range) - maintain (or even slightly reduce) these prices to ensure they are attractive/affordable enough to encourage growth in the Hobby. Use current QA/QC level - hopefully with less complex models, there are less opportunities for ‘bodge escapees’ anyway! **I do accept that this suggestion could equally fail abysmally & sink Hornby - so probably a good thing I have no actual say in the matter! 😉 Edited June 30 by LTSR_NSE Grammar corrections 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 Imagine starting with a blank sheet of 'paper' on a dull Monday and having to design that or similar. I could assemble it as laid out, but to draw it up would really stretch me, never mind design the bits from scratch so they interfaced correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 Hornby are not going to bring back production to the UK in any form, for a start they cannot afford it, they are significantly in debt. The Black 5 is complicated because probably they made it that way, who knows someone may eventually make one that looks the same but is easier to produce, that is evolution. We are beginning to see with a lot of the diesels that other companies can make a better product for less price. A lot of companies try to justify why their product is so expensive only to find out in a couple of years time that they can no longer sell their product because another company can do it better and cheaper, I worked for one. The Hornby class 60, class 56 are under threat and it appears Bachmann have produced a West Country as part of their Thomas range, how long before they decide to tap into that market. Who knows, probably eventually China will become too expensive so companies will migrate to the next cheapest source. Either way it is not going to happen, I just view the YouTube video as a cheap marketing ploy, people moan enough about Sam's videos, but this is worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 8 minutes ago, 96RAF said: Imagine starting with a blank sheet of 'paper' on a dull Monday and having to design that or similar. I could assemble it as laid out, but to draw it up would really stretch me, never mind design the bits from scratch so they interfaced correctly. Easy, you do it a bit at a time, I used to it with software, hardware and I have watched vehicle designers do it. If anything with the advent of CAD it has become substantially easier. In the days of drawing offices an awful lot different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 12 minutes ago, ColinB said: Easy, you do it a bit at a time, I used to it with software, hardware and I have watched vehicle designers do it. If anything with the advent of CAD it has become substantially easier. In the days of drawing offices an awful lot different. I grew up with drawing board, pencils and draughting tools then switched to CAD. Each has their own benefits and satisfactions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 20 minutes ago, ColinB said: China will become too expensive so companies will migrate to the next cheapest source. Either way it is not going to happen, Already happened - see the packaging for the power bank Made in India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 (edited) All manufacturers adopt something called Amortisation @ColinB, they look to recoup development costs at a higher rate earlier in the life cycle of of the product. That’s how a once expensive model can be offered in a cheaper version allied to removing detail and using more basic livery schemes. I would challenge that German/European made models are even as good as Chinese ones. Certainly moulding, detailing and decoration isn’t and from personal experience mechanisms are nothing to get excited about. But as to being a ‘marketing ploy’ well certainly there has been a lot of collaboration to produce the video and it’s perfectly reasonable. It’s not biased or inaccurate, it applies equally to all manufacturers in the industry as they all face the same challenges. Importantly it’s got professional input. Edited June 30 by Rallymatt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 1 hour ago, Rallymatt said: All manufacturers adopt something called Amortisation @ColinB, they look to recoup development costs at a higher rate earlier in the life cycle of of the product. That’s how a once expensive model can be offered in a cheaper version allied to removing detail and using more basic livery schemes. I would challenge that German/European made models are even as good as Chinese ones. Certainly moulding, detailing and decoration isn’t and from personal experience mechanisms are nothing to get excited about. But as to being a ‘marketing ploy’ well certainly there has been a lot of collaboration to produce the video and it’s perfectly reasonable. It’s not biased or inaccurate, it applies equally to all manufacturers in the industry as they all face the same challenges. Importantly it’s got professional input. Don't you think I know that having spent years in development meetings, even at one point deciding at one point how many bulbs to put on an instrument cluster to save money. Unfortunately in Hornby's case that doesn't seem to work, they are currently selling the 8F at a more expensive price that the new Black 5, even though the initial design has got to be over 20 years old. Then we have the original West Country, can't believe how much Hornby charge for that one, but then again people buy them. Funny, I buy mine second hand and modify the tender and get the same model for a substantially cheaper price. In the world of cars most of the models had a lifespan of 6 years, 3 years to a revamp (new bumpers, headlights, electronics) and then a total redesign. As to the build quality it depends on a lot, German engineering is not that great but it is usually pretty solid generally because they invest in decent machinery, like everything it depends on the team that designed and produced it. As to the video, less said about that, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rana Temporia Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 Hornby did something very similar in 1979 (Hornby Book of Trains)….. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 10 minutes ago, Rana Temporia said: Hornby did something very similar in 1979 (Hornby Book of Trains)….. That one even builds the motor. You can see the armature core laminations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBerriff Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 We should look at the businesses building up a presence using 3D-printing and laser-cutters. To me that brings in hope for the future of our small hobby-related UK businesses. At a few steps up we have the Raspberry Pi and companies like Pimoroni in Sheffield. But, as they say, that is another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 I've currently got 48 purchased components in Twin Sisters. For example, the motor is 1 part, whereas the gear driven by the worm has 2, there is a grub screw to attach the gear to the axle. I don't know quite how to count the 3D printed portion, except to say that there are currently 517 sketches. Each sketch is used to create features in the 48 purchased components and the 3D structure. Likely to be many more sketches along the way, as other parts are installed in CAD. You need to be organized!! Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 It’s very easy to underestimate the complexity of models these days. On a TT:120 A4 there are 10 individual components on one hand rail along the side of the boiler alone. I am glad JK made this video to highlight those that assemble the models are skilled model makers and do deserve some respect, often lacking. Ok things don’t always work out but I am sure all of who have ever done anything know that position all too well! 😁 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 I made a new handrail for a GW pannier tank using .45mm wire and brass stand-offs. What a complete mess that turned out to be. All praise to those who assemble these detailed models to retail standard. I watched the JK video and couldn't see anything that warranted any of the patronising comments posted earlier. Note that a similar test build procedure is deployed by Airfix except that they also use it to check the build sequence and that the instructions are totally adequate. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brew Man Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 8 minutes ago, 96RAF said: I made a new handrail for a GW pannier tank using .45mm wire and brass stand-offs. What a complete mess that turned out to be. All praise to those who assemble these detailed models to retail standard. I tried that with a 3D print I bought of an R1 - what a mess 😵😂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 Commercial production would use a form to bend the handrail repetitively. The price of that form, to include the engineering, would dwarf the price of any kit we could possibly purchase. You guys are too hard on yourselves Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loewietje Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Part 2 is out: And looking at the viewing numbers, the first one was a succes, despite the naysayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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